@shawnspencer I’ve noticed the same thing about the student papers at top schools - some very well-researched and well-written articles. Not every article is strong of course, but many are.
I think this is confounded when talking about lacs such as Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Bowdoin, which select close to half their freshman classes via ED. All of the ED admits have already turned down Harvard. Many of that group have academic profiles that would be highly competitive for Harvard admission. Had they applied, they would have a higher admit rate than the general application pool.
But it is unknowable what they would do if they had the actual choice. Some probably apply ED to a top lac because it’s less competive to get in. But some–I know this personally–have picked the lac in preference to all others.
^Unless they apply to Harvard SCEA we would never know if they were competitive. At 3% admit rate during RD, it is very hard to predict any outcomes during RD round.
@Exodius and @texaspg Actually, according to Parchment, of students admitted to both Stanford and Yale, 50% choose Stanford and 50% choose Yale. Here’s the link:
@shawnspencer Glad you liked it. FWIW, I’m a parent who attended neither Harvard nor Yale, so I’m not biased either way. But I’m very interested in this subject since I have a son who may be facing some of these decisions, which could be complicated by financial aid offers.
My son was accepted at Harvard but chose to attend Swarthmore. We thought he might choose Williams. He made his decision based on his experience at admitted students days. He liked the inquisitive nature of Swarthmore students. He didn’t expect to choose Swarthmore but he had a Malcolm Gladwell “Blink” type experience. He’s getting a terrific education.
I have a theory, which is too simple to be completely true, but simple enough not to be wholly false.
If a family DOES NOT require financial aid, a student admitted to multiple colleges will choose the school where s/he thinks the “fit” is the best — however that is defined.
However, when a student requires massive amounts of financial aid to attend a college costing $60K+ per year – and that student is admitted to multiple colleges – financial aid becomes the deciding factor. In other words, fit is not as important to most financial aid applicants and their families as graduating debt free with no loans.
Real World Example: My son really wanted to attend Brown, Williams, Pomona and Dartmouth, and was admitted to all those schools. But, each offered a horrible financial aid package, making the cost of attendance for our family about double what Yale offered, where he was also accepted. Although each peer school offered to match Yale’s financial aid for his freshman year, they would NOT give us a side-letter guaranteeing that if our family’s income remained the same, my son would receive the same percentage of aid in his sophomore, junior and senior years. As a result all those peer schools dropped by the wayside. Yale became my’s son’s choice because of financial aid — and it’s worked out great for my him. I’m a firm believer in Jeffrey Brenzel’s (Yale’s recently retired Admissions Officer) wisdom:
@gibby Interesting theory! And surprising that the aid packages varied so much. I know someone whose kid was accepted to a top LAC a couple of years ago with a huge aid package and a top women’s college with approximately $30K less in aid per year (amazing difference, and the college didn’t match the LAC’s offer). The student chose the expensive women’s college—the consolation for the parents was that the women’s college was much closer to home! I’m sure if the choice had been between either of these and Harvard, though, that Harvard would have “won”—even with no aid. My sense is that although a significant percentage of students accepted to Harvard end up going elsewhere, making that choice is very difficult for almost all of them. They’re aware of the name’s cachet and the doors it may open in the future. Relatively few are confident that other top schools may open just as many doors and so choose Harvard, even if the “fit” seems better elsewhere.
There may be some truth to Gibby’s theory. If the FA offers had been the same, I think I would have encouraged DD to attend Amherst rather than Harvard, because I had always imagined her flourishing at a true SLAC. I doubt I would have convinced her, but we would still have had the conversation.
FWIW, my son’s friend got into Princeton EA, and is almost definitely NOT going there.
Not sure why he applied, but I do think that since then, he had looked more at other Ivies, and Yale is his top choice (if he gets in). I do not think FA is an issue for his family.
My experience as an alumni interviewer for another Ivy is that about half the kids are really enthusiastic about our university, and the other half seem annoyed to have to take a half hour out of their lives to interview or just uninterested. I would suspect that at Harvard, there would be more kids in the latter group, the ones that seem to apply because of the brand value and not because of any personal interest.
Ivy yields from 2014:
Brown: 59.9%
Columbia: 60%
Cornell: 53.4%
Dartmouth: 54.5% (up from 48.6% the year before)
Harvard: 80.2%
Penn: 66%
Princeton: 59.2% (it was 10% lower about five years prior)
Yale: 71.7%
I know Harvard, Yale, and Princeton have SCEA. I think the others all have ED, but not sure of their ED acceptance rates (which would positively affect yield).
(And it is cold in Boston, as for reasons not to go. Even New Haven is less snow and warmer.)
^^If you’re talking yield for class of 2018, I believe it’s 69.2 for Princeton . . .
A tally of feedback so far (including some hearsay). Keep 'em coming!
Harvard – 80%
Other – 20%, as follows:
Ivy League – 4.5%
✓✓ Yale – 2%
Princeton – 1.5%
✓ Other Ivy – 1%
✓ Stanford – 2%
Tech Schools – 3%
MIT – 2%
Other Tech – 1%
LACs – 2.5%
✓ Williams, Swarthmore, Amherst – 1%
✓ Other LACs – 1.5%
Service Academies – 0.5%
✓ Music, art, and other specialty schools – 0.5%
✓✓✓ **All other schools – 5%
Something really different – 2%
The Stanford data were interesting, but it wasn’t clear what the “n” represented for each set of cross-admits. You’re assuming that the n=214 for the cross-admits between Stanford and Harvard means there were 214 cross admits who chose one of Stanford or Harvard and, of those, 42% chose Stanford. If you’re right, then it would be true that 4.5% of students admitted to Harvard select Stanford, which would be almost a quarter of the admitted students that Harvard loses to other schools. This just feels too high to me, however, so my guess is that the n=214 means that there were 214 Harvard/Stanford cross-admits in total. And that, of those 214, some chose schools other than Harvard or Stanford (e.g., Yale, Princeton, MIT, etc.). But that, of the subset of those 214 who did choose one of Harvard or Stanford, 42% chose Stanford. Of course, you could be right and I could be wrong (in which case @DavidSonDaughter would have to more than double the 2% he’s attributing to Stanford).
Your theory is on the money…
My older son’s first choice was Hopkins. He’d already formed a close relationship with the head of undergraduate studies in his major, the professor was interested and expert precisely in the area in which he was most interested, and the professor, had already agreed to mentor him.
But Harvard was 10K cheaper, and Hopkins wouldn’t budge. I directly told the financial aid officer that I wasn’t going to feel guilty sending my kid to an Ivy over Hopkins. He told my son to enjoy the Ivy League.
This thread is a joke right? This ridiculous game could be played on Stanford’s forum as well since very few choose to go elsewhere…
This thread is deadly serious. Harvard-Stanford pissing contest aside, if all goes well, it may very well lead to the dawn of world peace.
It’s already found a cure for SOME types of cancer, right OP?
Parchment is not a real source. The colleges reporting have much better statistics than anyone else.
@nynyparent I assumed you could be right and tried to revalidate the numbers.
Stanford admitted 2138 students. They had 1691 acceptances at the time of the presentation showing that they lost 447 students.
I added all the numbers as percentages using the n number in the chart and the four schools collectively (Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT) took 309 students away from Stanford. Essentially, all other schools put together got the other 138 students who Stanford admitted which sounds reasonable.
@xiggi - do you see any fallacies in those calculations?
This is a silly thread that will not give any real statistics.
Did anyone turn down an Ivy/Stanford for a state school like Alabama?
Surely someone without infinite $$$ has?
I’m talking about upper middle class kids with a high EFC.
Those are the peeps I would like to hear from.
Yes, I know of a student who was admitted to Harvard, but when the family did not receive financial aid because they made about $250K, the family chose to send their daughter to a flagship state college. It happens.