Yes I agree that the upper middle class - too high of an income to qualify for aid, but not truly wealthy i.e. $65k/year is a significant expense for the family - is the group where Harvard and others that don’t give merit aid will lose some students, either to state schools or to private schools (such as Duke) that give some full rides based on merit rather than financial need.
Not Harvard, but close. A friend of my sons was accepted to Princeton but turned it down for a University of Maryland Banneker/Key full scholarship.
I think national-level athletes with the academic chops to get into Harvard, might turn it down for a top Division 1 school. And to throw in an additional wrinkle I think that no student who has potential for, say, the NFL, and is a decent student would choose to go to Harvard over Stanford–Andrew Luck and John Elway.
My friend turned down Harvard for a full ride to UVA. He won the Jefferson scholarship. Another friend turned it down for a full scholarship to UNC
@Nerdyparent
Yep. My upper middle class cousin turned down Harvard for FIU because she had a full-ride to FIU and Harvard gave her very little money.
@latichever Good point and there’s certainly some of that, especially in football and men’s basketball where there are the most lucrative professional opportunities. I would include baseball but the majority of baseball players don’t go to college.
Harvard and the Ivy League generally are doing better than in the past though at getting the athletes they want, especially in NCAA “equivalency” sports (everything other than football, men’s and women’s basketball, and women’s volleyball) where even at big time programs, full rides are the exception rather than the norm. For many families regular Ivy League financial aid, especially at the Ivies with the best financial aid (HYP), will be a better deal than a partial scholarship (or worse yet, preferred walk on i.e. no funding) at another school.
So, now we see things like Harvard winning NCAA men’s basketball tournament games, Yale winning the NCAA men’s hockey championship, some Ivy League track athletes winning NCAA individual titles (e.g., the current women’s hammer champion is at Princeton), and Ivy League athletes winning Olympic medals.
I’m not saying Harvard is going to compete with Ohio State in football - or that it should even aspire to that - just that the overall level of Ivy League sports has gone up substantially.
The NY Times had an interesting article on this.
I know someone from a very well-to-do family who turned down Harvard and Stanford for the University of Texas. He said he just couldn’t justify asking his parents to pay 60K+ a year to send him to school to be an engineer when he could get the same quality of job opportunities by attending UT.
I knew someone who turned down harvard for Jefferson scholars at uva
I know someone who turned down Harvard for Caltech and seems quite happy there – better “fit”.
I know quite a few athletes who have been recruited by Harvard but turned it down for other elite colleges, most commonly Stanford and Princeton.
@texaspg, if you’re right, then almost 70% of the students that Stanford lost went to one of four other schools - Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT. That seems high to me, given all the other possible landing spots that @DavidSonDaughter lists in his speculative chart for Harvard - e.g., other Ivies, top LACs, full rides at other good schools, specialty schools (like music), Caltech, etc. If you are right, however, then I think it’s likely that Harvard mirrors that concentration, so the numbers in the Harvard chart would be more like Stanford 4.5%, Yale 4.5%, Princeton 3%, MIT 2%, and the last 6% would be divided up among the remaining categories.
^I took a look at that chart and I also think it’s showing that 309 went to one of the four, out of 447 total who went somewhere else. It does seem pretty concentrated but that seems to be what the data say.
30 years ago - but I was accepted at both Harvard & Princeton. Turned both down to go to Penn State. Purely financial reasons.
Actual data points, the first of which was I many years ago:
Yale, superior faculty in main area of interest, less anxiety among students, best friend also going there, broke from family pattern of going to Harvard.
Northwestern, better for film studies (later said decision was a big mistake).
Indiana University, dance conservatory program (left to join a professional company after one year, finished degree at Harvard some years later after injuries ended dance career)
Michigan, full ride scholarship (OOS), equivalent faculty strength and more diverse student body.
Stanford, stronger faculty and students in main area of interest, wanted to work in Silicon Valley.
Stanford, weather, exciting change from home.
Stanford, weather, stronger faculty in area of interest, more laid back students.
Yale, family legacy, stronger faculty in area of interest, nicer feel among students, better a cappella and theater cultures.
Wesleyan, better for LGBT students (but then changed mind and got Harvard to permit late acceptance of offer)
Princeton, liked the small town feel, more intimate vibe, nicer students.
As for DavidSonDaughter’s speculation, I think nynyparent is much closer. I suspect that among the 350 or so students that Harvard “loses” each year, close to 300 are going to Stanford, Yale, Princeton, or MIT, 30 to some other Ivy, and 20 to the rest of the world.
This is exactly what I’m wondering. Harvard gives very generous aid to those with low income. Those whose parents earn $200+k I’m sure can fund a Harvard education directly out of their pay. It’s those in between who’ve got the toughest choice…use a whole chunk of their assets, sell their home but too “poor” to fund out of their pay checks…so I often wonder will Harvard one day not have representation of upper middle class? Or is it already that way?
^^ The issue you bring up goes beyond Harvard. Many private colleges have income limits for financial aid that are lower than Harvard’s, but still have the sticker-price of Harvard. For example, NYU currently costs $60+K per year for tuition, room and board, but their endowment doesn’t allow for generous financial aid. So, student’s that attend NYU need to be from families that are either really poor and qualify for financial aid, or really rich and don’t need financial aid. Otherwise, they can seriously take on a mountain of debt: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/29/your-money/student-loans/29money.html?pagewanted=all
True it does go beyond Harvard. I bet it’s interesting data.
@rdtsmith “.so I often wonder will Harvard one day not have representation of upper middle class?”
Being one of those, I can say Harvard (and Yale and Princeton) are actually very generous with FA even for families in the 120-150K per year range. In that income range, depending on assets, the COA my be around 1/3 to 1/2 the “sticker price”. So, while 20K is still a lot of money, it’s less than our State U (inc room and board).
The rub is that most kids that are able to be admitted to HYP could qualify for substantial merit aid elsewhere.
The FA “donut hole” starts to accelerate from around $150K per year. Aid pretty much disappears (with one child in college) at right under $250K per year with modest assets. Thus, a family with $150K in income may have a bill of $15K or 20K per year, but $65K at $250K in income. That means that Harvard is taking 45% - 50% of the the extra $100K in income from folks. Combined with additional federal and state taxes, that extra $100K in income may result in perhaps 15% - 20% actually accruing to the income earner. Ouch.
So, those are the folks getting squeezed the hardest. And that’s over 25% of GROSS income. Imagine having all your bills and being told for the next four years you need to cough up an extra 25% of your GROSS income. Rough.
At our high school, these are the folks who take the big scholarships to our state flagship over acceptances to Ivies.
One girl from my school (She’s a year older–class of 2018) turned down Harvard for Princeton. When I asked her why, she said that she visited both schools, and just had a gut feeling that Princeton’s atmosphere was better for her.