<p>From what I've read ETS compares how different genders and races of <em>comparable ability</em> do on a question, and if there is an achievement gap, they throw the question out. If ETS is indeed following this method (and I strongly suspect they are), that means that any question that favors either white or black students of comparable ability will be thrown out. However, once distributed over the entire population, the questions will appear to favor white students because they are more heavily weighted towards the stronger end due to factors such as affluence, K-12 education and other legitimate, pre-college grievances of the black community. The theory that ETS will throw out a question that favors blacks while leaving in questions that favor whites is a sensationalistic spinning of the methodology the ETS actually employs.</p>
<p>The type of verbal questions that Blacks outperformed whites in was in emotional logic questions. There are others types I believe. </p>
<p>Harvard Educational Review and Santa Clara Law Review has come up with these controversial findings. While solutions to this problem may vary, denying that this problem exists when it is blatantly obvious it does, is tantamount to racism to me. </p>
<p>If someone can show me how someone can ignore this fact that college board throws out these questions that blacks do better than whites in is not an institutional racist act in itself, I am willing to listen.</p>
<p>If you are refering to Mr Freedle's study several sources I have come across, including collegeboard itself: <a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/research/html/resp_freedle.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.collegeboard.com/research/html/resp_freedle.html</a> have come to the conclusion that his findings are fatally flawed.</p>
<p>
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The theory that ETS will throw out a question that favors blacks while leaving in questions that favor whites is a sensationalistic spinning of the methodology the ETS actually employs.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Wow. So because you call it sensationalistic, I guess Harvard University and Santa Clara Law School should immediately fire their top professors and researchers eh? </p>
<p>Just admit it. Maybe URM's who get in are not a result of a methodology that is favored, but merely a sensationalistic spinning of the methods that Harvard actually employs. </p>
<p>Lets face it, no one here would believe you over Harvard and Santa Clara.</p>
<p>"Lets face it, no one here would believe you over Harvard and Santa Clara."</p>
<p>Well considering no one appears to be believing Harvard and Santa Clara anyway, I think the point is moot.</p>
<p>College board has a reputation to uphold. Show me an academic professor who is willing to put his/her name on an academic study from a well respected Journal like the Harvard Educational Review. Not a PR article.</p>
<p>"Stanford University admits students of either sex and any race, color, religion, sexual orientation, or national and ethnic origin to all the rights, privileges, programs, and activities generally accorded or made available to students at the University. It does not discriminate against students on the basis of sex, race, age, color, handicap, religion, sexual orientation, or national and ethnic origin in the administration of its educational policies, admissions policies, scholarships and loan programs, and athletic and other University-administered programs."</p>
<p>Hahahahahaha, that's so funny. Im seriously on the ground laughing. When will Stanford tell us the truth? Perhaps at the end of the world, maybe? Probably not</p>
<p>"athletic and other University-administered programs" </p>
<p>does that mean they dont care about athletes? where do they come up with the basketball team?</p>
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I would be willing to bet that academic success corresponds more to the state of the family unit than to the public school system or even to the economic circumstances in play
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<p>Exactly. Blacks do not care about education. Poor blacks care even less. This has been observed in tons of studies for over 20 years now starting with the infamous "acting white" thesis that Bill Cosby often cites.</p>
<p>Urban schools are bad, but answer me this:</p>
<p>Why do whites and asians do better (Sat, gpa) than blacks when corrected to look at people from the same income bracket and the same school?</p>
<p>Ok, do you have your witty comeback prepared? Now, answer me this:</p>
<p>Why do whites and asians do better than blacks when the study is corrected to look only at white/asians who have an annual household income 90% less than the studied blacks (and go to the same school)?</p>
<p>The answer isn't in the school, the teachers, or the income. It's in the culture.</p>
<p>exactly maize the majority of asians and whites weren't brought into america as slaves and treated like dogs til about 30 years ago</p>
<p>Dead wrong.</p>
<p>Actually the Asians were originally brought to work on the railroads in conditions FAR worse than slavery. In some instances they were made to dig a graves before attempting to lay track across tough terrain because it was such a certainty that so many would die in the process.</p>
<p>They were subject to "Jap-Crow" laws throughout the west every bit as insidiuous as Jim Crow.</p>
<p>They were scapegoated, lynched, and deported to Mexico in WWI and the great depression.</p>
<p>They were interned and robbed of every possession they had in WWII.</p>
<p>Despite having all their goods, money, shops, buisinesses, etc taken 50 years ago, they have bounced back. They literally had nothing - now they get the highest grades and sat scores on average.</p>
<p>Why were the Asians able to advance and the Blacks weren't? Why could they advance with unfair treatment AND losing everything they own where the Blacks couldn't advance with just unfair treatment (and still can't advance even with a truly level playing field).</p>
<p>Need a hint? The Asians didn't have the African-american disdain for institutions and learning that the blacks still have to this day. It's all cultural. Listen to "white music" (softer rock, pop etc) and you can hear references to parents being angry when kids drop out of college etc. Listen to rap and you'll hear references to having "working girls in the High Schools" and how they're "took cool for high school".</p>
<p>You lose, try again.</p>
<p>Well, personally, as the world becomes ever more integrated, the cultural authenticity of a nation will become ever more scrutinized. Globalization means shared values, and the entire world will disagree with systematic racism in testing that favors one group over another. Testing should be free of bias, and questions should not be thrown out just because a non white group outperforms whites on that specific type of question.</p>
<p>Racial Discrimination is deeply rooted in the US. In every fabric of society. Will affirmative action be implemented to promote diversity and to alleviate systematic racism within the US? </p>
<p>
[quote]
Racial discrimination deeply rooted in US: China's report
<a href="http://www.chinaview.cn%5B/url%5D">www.chinaview.cn</a> 2005-03-03 13:28:40</p>
<p>BEIJING, March 3 (Xinhuanet) -- Racial discrimination has been deeply rooted in the United States, permeating into every aspects of society, said the Human Rights Record of the United States in 2004 released by the Information Office of the State Council of China Thursday.</p>
<p>According to the record, the colored people are generally poor,with living condition much worse than the white. According to a report of The Guardian of Britain on Oct. 9, 2004, the average netassets of a white family is 88,000 US dollars in 2002, 11 times of a family of Latin American ancestry, or nearly 15 times of a family of African ancestry.</p>
<p>Statistics show that the number of black people living in poverty is three times that of the white. The average life expectancy of the black is six years shorter than the white.</p>
<p>People of minority ethnic groups are biased against in employment and occupation, the record said. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission of the United States received 29,000 complaints in 2003 of racial bias in the workplace. Statistics provided by the United States Department of Labor also suggest that by November 2004, the unemployment rate for black and white people is 10.8 percent and 4.7 percent respectively.
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<p>The world is watching.</p>
<p>"Intelligence may come off differently to each person you speak to."</p>
<p>This is true...my dad scored in the perfect range for law school and he was accepted with a full ride to American University (?)</p>
<p>I agree that it's cultural.</p>
<p>Blacks were never granted all of the rights promised under the 14th amendment. But Asians were barred from citizenship altogether. Affirmative action clearly cannot be reparation for past injustices because Asians would then be entitled to some of that and Latinos arguably suffered the least discrimination due to the fact that they were considered "white." </p>
<p>Why have Asians been so successful? The immigrants who come over today are mainly highly educated individuals with college degrees. While they're not rich, they're educated and instill that value in their children. You just don't see this to as large an extent in black communities. This is the part that is puzzling to me. You would think that being denied the right to education for so long, that blacks would embrace education when it was finally granted.</p>
<p>"Affirmative action clearly cannot be reparation for past injustices because Asians would then be entitled to some of that and Latinos arguably suffered the least discrimination due to the fact that they were considered "white.""</p>
<p>LOL, dude are you joking or just have a total lack of knowledge of our nations history.</p>
<p>Maize&Blue22 just addressed what has been done to the Asians too. Its not like Asians just "came here" and were accepted by white society.</p>
<p>Its been much more recent than slavery too. Japanese were placed in internment camps during WWII (While Germans and Italians were ignored.). Slavery ended in the 1860s.</p>
<p>Anyways, Asian Americans are for URM affirmative action. Every leading Asian American organization is for URM affirmative action. Not all Asians are successful. SE Asians have poverty levels lower than that of Blacks, and are also severely underrepresented in colleges. Along with their blood brethren, Native Americans. </p>
<p>Asian Americans are for affirmative action for URM's even though Asians are accepted at 50-100 points higher on the SAT at colleges than whites (it used to be 200 points at Harvard in the 1980s). It goes to show you that the American dream should exist for everyone, and how important that belief is to be an American.</p>
<p>What bothers me is that a lot of recent African immigrants are taking a lot of the spots that were meant for African Americans (Same with whites who mark "latino"). Africans come to America with a stronger cultural identity (their identity wasn't stolen), and with greater self esteem. Affirmative Action is partly to help remedy the socio-economic discrepancy that exists for marginalized groups, and African Americans have been marginalized a lot more than recent African immigrants have. </p>
<p>Discrimination takes its toll. Northern Irish have shown to do poorer on tests than their Irish counterparts because of the heavy discrimination against the Northern Irish that exists. When you count in the recent evidence of College Board's treatment of questions that Blacks do well in, I cannot see any other answer to alleviate this problem other than AA.</p>
<p>a little more to add...</p>
<p>Afirmative Action is a copout by the government to pay retribution for past atrocities. They aren't helping any URM by sending them off unprepared to a high level university. They are just feeding the stereotypes that blacks, mexicans, and native americans are less intelligent than other races. This is absolute baloney. If the wanted to really help URMs in the long run...they would make an attempt to provide minority dominant high schools better educated professional teachers. The problem is that for the most part, the better educated and more professional teachers tend to search for work in rich/urban communities rather than rural communities for whatever reason...whether it be to provide their children a better education, fear of blacks/mexicans/minorities, safer more "white" communities, etc. The government needs to give professional college-educated teachers incentive to go provide their services in minority dominant schools and rural areas. Perhaps...double salary, increase benefits, whatever that gets the job done. If we don't remove these stereotypes...blacks, mexicans, native americans will always grow up thinking that they are less intelligent because of their skin color...they will think that Affirmative Action is a movement that is serving to benefit them. When in reality, it is just a half-assed tradeoff for poorer schools and underqualified teachers. AA keeps the better teachers/resources for the rich population of America.</p>
<p>BTW, I'm asian and don't support AA. It's definately not because I have a 1330 SAT and feel that if I wasn't asian I would get into a better school. I might be less intelligent than other asians...but I feel that AA has nothing to do with equal opportunity. I live in California..and it doesn't take much to see that rich communities have better funded high schools. Why do people pay $1 million dollars for a 2 bedroom house in Los Altos, Cupertino, or Fremont? Definately not for the city-life or the view. It's because of the better high schools. If you want equal opportunity...let underprivledged URMs, enroll outside their city to top high schools and transport them back and forth. Give them the same tools, books, teachers...and let them take their education in their own hands. AA is not Equal Oppurtunity. AA is the largest facade of racial equality since pre-Luther King Jr. days.</p>
<p>i agree with many posters. most signficantly is with Maize&Blue22; success is based on ** culture **, not genetics/skin color. how is selecting AGAINST harder workers and those willing to invest in an education leveling the playing field? asians (chinese) and blacks started off in america basically the same; severely underpaid, discriminated, etc.. and i guarantee its hard as hell to find an asian who has 1-2 generation legacy to ivy leagues.</p>