<p>Azn, no where in my post did I say no Indians or Asians play sports OR all of them play instruments. I was specifically referring to the kids MY KIDS KNEW. If you took offense to it, I am sorry but perhaps you were sensitive to it, I would suggest you carefully reread what I wrote. I was speaking strictly in the context of OUR situation, the kids my kids were friends with and the ones in their schools that were real standouts. To make such a general comment would be silly and irresponsible. I think we all agree that most Asian and Indian kids in this country are quite successful, hey thats a great thing!
I was just citing my own life, and our exposure to these groups and have always been fascinated about where that drive comes from.</p>
<p>@Nato</p>
<p>you said,</p>
<p>(Another factor is that the Asians we see in america are usually in the top 1 or 2% of the ones in China. So we're seeing the best of the best, in both worth ethic and intelligence).</p>
<p>BUt I don't think it's true. The Asians we see in america are just as normal as or slightly smarter than the normal Asian students in their countries. Most of them are not in the top 1% or 2%. Top 1-2% Asians are really extremely amazing. You don't even wanna know about them. They are incredible.</p>
<p>I havent read all the answers, so I do not know if this is repeated. A couple of different comments:</p>
<p>Not all asian citizens in this country do well - for instance, when there is a mass exodus from an asian country to this due to war, or some other disaster, those kids are not ahead of the curve. Think of who immigrates to this country from other countries, and why. Some slip over the border for low paid jobsthat still pay better than thier own country. Some come as refuges. Some spend a lot of money to travel long distances. Some come here as college students and stay. Which of those groups are going to tend to have smarter and more spohisticated people? Maybe the asians in this country are smarted than average, but only because of a brain drain.</p>
<p>I am not asian. I am jewish. My son is a math wiz. We know a lot of asians. A lot!! I cannot specifically point to any particular thing that would make these kids stand out - except they all come from families that are intelligent and educated, and often with a higher than average income. Not unlike my own family.</p>
<p>Some are pushy parents, others are loving and supportive. The kids in the supportive families usually do better in the long run. </p>
<p>Once I went to a meeting of high acheving kids and their parents. A man came up to me and asked me if I was the mother of <my son's="" name="">. Later, I realized I was the only person in the place who could have been his mother, since I was the only nonasian woman there. The next day, at the math league practice, I was joking about this to some asian parents. One of them said he was surprised there were not more jewish kids involved in the local math community. I replied that 50 years ago, that room would have indeed been mostly jewish, and in 50 more years, it would not be predominately asian.</my></p>
<p>To perhaps break a mold:</p>
<p>I'm an Indian. I never went to math tutoring centers. I was always out playing soccer. I was never particularly predisposed towards math (although I can hold my own. Heh.) My parents encouraged me to try in school, but not as much as other Indian parents. I was the nerd who forced myself to score higher. My parents found it immensely hilarious I failed my first biology. They laughed when I cried.</p>
<p>But I'm also a really intense cross country runner. And I watch ESPN with a religious passion. I have a life outside of school.</p>
<p>Many Indian parents (not all, by any means) can be overly focused on grades. They ingrain their children with the idea that they can only be engineers, or doctors, and that academic success is the measure of worth. Sports are not as encouraged. It's simply the culture; In India, acceptance to many colleges is based only on an entrance exam, and nothing more. I find this attitude of "grades only" to be far more prevalent among slightly newer immigrant families, the 'third wave' of Indians as they are know in our community, who had children form 1993 onwards. They came to America primarly for jobs, and focus heavily on status symbols far too often-- an honor roll child being one of them. My poor aunt lives in a heavily Indian community where they flaunt their high honor roll 8th graders, while my cousin tends to be more invovled in community service. My aunt sometimes is made to feel left out in the midst of this Indian community.</p>
<p>Going back to what I said about 'third wave', the 'first' and 'second' wave Indians, referring to those that had kids between 1980-1992 tended to come here more for college and graduate school. People like my father acclimated very quickly to American learning systems-- one that focuses more on the holistic process of learning, understanding and applying. In India, the emphasis is placed on memorizing and regurgitating, and this is the idea that much of the third wave arrived with. Thus, the parents transmit their values to the children. Many Indian parents feel that the American schooling system moves too slowly; too much on the 'understanding' than shoving information, which is why many take it upon themselves to send their children to Kumon, or start teaching advanced concepts to the child in the home, essentially, depriving them of a playful childhood as I have seen far too often in my own community.</p>
<p>With the narrow-minded overacheivers that are being bred by increasing numbers of Indian families, I am quite certain, but 2012, the competition among them will be far more intense. Coming from an Indian family and community, I have witnessed what I described first hand for seventeen years. I do not generalize; I understand not all Indian families are like what I describe. Nonetheless, this is my analysis of the situation.</p>
<p>I welcome questions and discussion-- this is an interesting topic!</p>
<p>-M</p>
<p>I am Indian.. typically it starts early on.. most kids during their first, second, and third grades have more activities.. usually asian and indian kids are put into rounds of tutors so they come out ahead of the other students in high school..</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some are pushy parents, others are loving and supportive. The kids in the supportive families usually do better in the long run.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I think this is true. My parents probably fall under the category of loving and supportive (or at least "non-pushy") because they don't micromanage and tell me to do my homework and stuff. They don't know a lot about what's going on in my classes.</p>
<p>Overbearing/helicopter/pushy parents produce students who won't assert themselves in life. They become shy followers, not leaders. Activities in their lives are parent-initiated. Then these kids can't hold normal conversations because they don't know pop culture. At the extreme, they don't go to social events at all because their parents want them to study or their parents don't want the kid 'corrupted' by those sketchy other kids, they don't have facebooks or blogs, they don't watch TV. I know of at least one example of such a situation at my school and people talk behind this person's (who is Chinese, btw!) back like, oh [name] is never going to get anywhere in the future if she continues to let her mom control her life like this.</p>
<p>I am an Indian, and I agree with most of this thread. Let me present another and (just a little) different perpective. My parents were the "second wave" emigrants from India; both went to medical school there and came from rich, successful families. My grandparents were OB-GYNs in India, and gladly gave up their practice to accompany their son (my Dad) to America, where he and Mom were the unlucky FMGs: foreign medical graduates who were given all the scut-work in the hospitals by their white supervisors. My dad is a smart man (who can "get things done" like no other), and showed the white medical students just how dumb they were (many were Harvard Medical School residents and the like).</p>
<p>My father, although he wants me to go to an Ivy League School, has never had to force me to work. I think the work ethic and diligence and discipline I have are inherent in me; in fact, my parents often tell me "dont work so hard, take a break" or "go out with your friends". They were immensely proud when I got a 2400, but they were not "ok good, you are now a worthy human." </p>
<p>My parents focus less on academics than on "efficiency" and "productivity" - as my dad says, how to communicate, how to get things done, how to succeed in the world. He tells me (and I admire him greatly) about the fact that his hard work and practicality - coming with $7 and a suit to America in 1986 - defeated all the rich white students in New York hospitals. He tells me how he graduated from the University of Gujarat - not an "Ivy" by any standard - and went on to do his fellowship at the crappiest hospital in the Bronx, the only one that would take him. He tells me how his inherent drive and ethics have made him earn much more money than his Ivy-league competitors. Although he fits rather nicely with the Asian stereotype of academics coming first (he loathes the fact that public high schools give more support and enthusiasm for their football and basketball teams than the "academic teams", how America will be overtaken by India and China for this reason, etc, etc) but he also emphasizes that academics is worthless without skills in the real world - multitasking, time management, dealing with people ("you will have to deal with retarded people all your life, son"), being efficient, communicating, etc. He always tell me (somewhat jokingly, I hope): "I dont care if you go to ISU (Ind. State Univ), but learn these things!" </p>
<p>That said, my parents are very loving and supportive, and not strict at all (they don't have to be); I am very close with my parents (I am an only child as well). When I get a 99 on the biology test (even though that was the highest score!), Dad will still say "Hey Doba (Indian word for idiot), what happened to the last point?", but he is kidding and secretly proud nonetheless.</p>
<p>My family culture must be working, because amongst my parents, their cousins, all the uncles and great-uncles, and my own cousins, include a prominent university virologist, a self-made billionnaire in computer programming, a computer engineer-slash-author of technical book, and doctors of all kinds without end. It's all about "getting things done"!</p>
<p>
[quote]
I mean I remember even in 2nd grade, my son was best friends with a Chinese kid, an Indian kid and an American.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>"Chinese" and "Indian" are typically used in reference to race/ethnicity, whereas "American" is a tag for nationality. Your choice of language implies that being "Chinese" and being "American" is mutually exclusive.</p>
<p>I am a really bad example of a typical "Asian" kid. My parents used to push me a lot when I was younger, and it didn't help that I was pretty passive and introverted, and thus had no friends. I did piano, tried ballet and gymnastics, took art classes, etc. However, I inherited from my mom's side a fiery temper, and would often butt heads with my mom. [this turned out really badly, because my grandparents are visiting atm and they're really traditional Chinese, and hate it when I give my own opinion/POV] As a result, they've lightened up on me a lot, versus what I hear of other Asian kid's family lives. However, I am very very prejudiced against "stupid" people (aka anyone who is NOT interested in bettering themselves academically), and thus try to get into a good school so that I will not be surrounded by the idiots at my high school. [Prom > math final, anyone?] Not to mention that I am pretty nerdy to begin with. Any antisocial aspects of my life are all self-imposed. :]</p>
<p>i've heard that asians are more evolved than other races, as seen by their lack of hair.</p>
<p>basically, everyone else is hairer than asians, so asians evolved faster and are smarter.</p>
<p>I know a lot of Asians who play sports AND do all the 'asian' activities: music, math, chess, science, and so on. </p>
<p>Part of this is because Asians are definitely "catching on" - colleges LIKE to see sports and drums and doll-crafting and community outreach from Asian kids who tend to gravitate towards more academic activities. If you came to my school, you'd see at least a few Asian kids on practically every sports team - even on the Varsity Football team! (And chinese kids are not known for being big and burly, heh). On certain sports teams, like volleyball, tennis, badminton, field hockey, and poms, there are soooo many Asians. </p>
<p>A lot of my Asian friends who don't play on school teams still play outside of school. In fact, I'd say that probably more than half of my Asian friends really love at least one sport. And I have a lot of smart Asian friends - well, smart in the typical book-smart sense.</p>
<p>So to the mom who started this thread, I'm genuinely surprised that so many of the Asian kids you know FIT into the stereotype for Asian school-nerds. I can't quite explain that, except for perhaps the idea that your son happens to be friends with a few Asians who are averse to sports, or that they just don't play in school teams but play in outside teams or by themselves, for fun. In general, I think the Asian stereotype of anti-sports, anti-physicality is really diminishing, in part because of the college admissions process steering away from the pure-numbers approach.</p>
<p>P.S. I noticed with and agree with what Sheldon pointed out. Chinese and American are not mutually exclusive terms. F.x, I'm a Chinese-American :) Chinese and Caucasian are mutually exclusive. Anyway, we knew what you meant.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Once I went to a meeting of high acheving kids and their parents. A man came up to me and asked me if I was the mother of <my son's="" name="">. Later, I realized I was the only person in the place who could have been his mother, since I was the only nonasian woman there. The next day, at the math league practice, I was joking about this to some asian parents. One of them said he was surprised there were not more jewish kids involved in the local math community. I replied that 50 years ago, that room would have indeed been mostly jewish, and in 50 more years, it would not be predominately asian.
[/quote]
</my></p>
<p>I think high-achieving Asians are mostly concentrated in the East and West coasts, as you don't see nearly as many in the midwest.</p>
<p>very interesting posts...</p>
<p>I am from Bangladesh and I am in almost the exact same situation rb9109 is in... its just about getting stuff done; my parents don't control everything and try to force me to learn - they rarely ask about my classes and only know about the grades that come in the mail and what I choose to tell them.</p>
<p>======
anyh@,
most Asians in this country ARE the top 1-2% of the population of their home countries. The income disparity is just too wide in Asia so that even people around top 5-10% don't have the means of coming - so the only ways of getting here are as refugees or being extremely rich (who most often happen to be the most educated). And the top 1-2% who do make it here have been through a culture that is many times more competitive than it here which develops a strong work ethic - these people carry that experience over here and it gets passed on to their kids. The ones who get here as refugees also have a strong work ethic - not from competing for college spots and jobs, but from doing hard work, like working in the fields or doing some sort of work to keep the family going <- these people go out and take advantage of the opportunities available</p>
<p>I think that the two main things that lead to high achieving Asians are
1) the "brain drain effect" (best and brightest coming to America, etc)
2) cultural differences, discipline, etc. </p>
<p>I definitely think there is a harder push in Asian households to do well, and excel at everything, starting from an early age.<br>
I'm Indian, first gen, and my parents never hired tutors or anything (though my a lot of my mother's friends sent their kids to Kumon, instead of tutors, but my mom only suggested this when I was in middle school and I completely refused...extra math? um yeah, righttt), but they are academically demanding. I remember when I was in my early elementary school years that my mom bought me this mulitiplication placemat for the dining table and made me practice problems on it while I waited for her to give me dinner...things like that. During the summer she made me memorize my mutiplication/division tables until 12, etc. etc. I'm watching my younger brother go through the same thing right now.<br>
Like....if I came home with a 99 on a test, I wouldn't get a "Good Job!"--I'd get a "Well why'd you lose that one point?" It's definitely not as bad now, with the classes I'm taking, 99s are rare, and B+s in AP Phys are quite acceptable (considering the class average is a B-), but yeah.
I'm also not the greatest Asian kid, by any standards. I quit piano lessons after a year and a half of hating them, I switched from the violin to the flute after one year and dropped music all together after three.<br>
My parents did encourage me to get into sports--I played basketball until 8th grade, softball until 9th, and soccer until 11th.<br>
I hate math/science with a passion and LOVE history/writing/art/design. </p>
<p>oh and one thing that caught my interst in this thread is the idea that by third generation the cultural gap between caucasians/asians will have been diluted. I think that could be very true. Whether it will be asians letting loose a bit more, or caucasians tightening the reins, we will have to wait and see =P</p>
<p>
[quote]
basically, everyone else is hairer than asians, so asians evolved faster and are smarter.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I've heard that one before--from Asians who believe baloney pseudoscientific ideas of demagogues.</p>
<p>It's big and complicated.. I'd have to say the single biggest influence is just the culture. Asian parents generally just push harder. There's also the brain drain theory... And finally... let's face it, there are differences between races beyond color of skin. Asians in general just have higher IQ's. Some people debate whether or not IQ is a good determinant of intelligence but it has to amount to something.</p>
<p>Maybe it has to do with the fact that Japanese and Koreans don't have BO glands. <em>shrug</em></p>
<p>It has nothing to do with IQ. I am Asian myself. And I think Asian parents and students really need to quit their "intelligence delusion". No we aren't "smarter" than any other races ("smarter" on the IQ scale). It's our work ethics! We achieve it because we value it highly, we achieve it at the cost of many other significant things in our lives. Asians who got Nobel prizes or fields medals? Gosh, I can't think of any. </p>
<p>Yet for the Jews: It's definitely IQ. There're several theories attempting to explain the Jewish intelligence level such as the "Ashkenazi intelligence ".</p>
<p>just my thought(im an asian too btw)</p>
<p>ive lived in korea till 9th grade...
i think the asians know the values of education...and what it can do later in their lives...so...the academic standard is really higher than americans' (calculus is standard math for 10th grader in korea)
and for korean international student , more than 90% have had tutor or some kind of sat courses...</p>
<p>
[quote]
And finally... let's face it, there are differences between races beyond color of skin. Asians in general just have higher IQ's. Some people debate whether or not IQ is a good determinant of intelligence but it has to amount to something.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is a meaningless assertion, because it doesn't control for the education systems in place in the countries. I doubt that North Koreans, if you were to measure their IQs with the same methodology as used in Japan or Korea, would do as well. Nutrition also plays a role, of course.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yet for the Jews: It's definitely IQ. There're several theories attempting to explain the Jewish intelligence level such as the "Ashkenazi intelligence ".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The only reasonable theory I've seen for this is a link between Tay Sachs and intelligence, but even that is weak at best.</p>
<p>Unless the Indian kid and the Chinese kid you mentioned were born outside of America, I don't know why you think your kid is American but they are not.</p>