I REALLY don't know what caliber of school I should be looking at...(help please!)

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hey everyone,</p>

<p>As a junior finishing my school year I'm beginning to scope out colleges. My stats are as follows:</p>

<p>GPA: 4.01 at competitive public high school</p>

<p>SAT scores: M/CR/W = 640/640/740 = 2020</p>

<p>Extracurriculars: solid but not PHENOMENAL, I have a good amount</p>

<p>Letter grades: freshman year a couple B's, sophomore year all A's, junior year all A+'s so far</p>

<p>The kicker: My course rigor sucks. In a school that offers many AP's and honors classes, I have taken 2 honors classes per year. 2 honors freshman year, 2 sophomore, and 2 junior year. Junior year I know I should have taken an advanced placement class, but I stressed out at the prospect (and now I'm stressing out more at the idea I'm seemingly the only one in the grade who didn't take an AP exam junior year).</p>

<p>I know one of the most important things colleges say that they look for is course rigor, and with straight A+'s in a mix of honors/standard classes junior year I just don't have that. But, I'm acing standard CP (college preparatory) classes that some of my friends (who have AP's) are getting B's in, such as chemistry. </p>

<p>I plan to take 2 AP's next year.</p>

<p>So, on one hand I'm thinking to myself...WOW! I have straight A+'s in classes that are moderately challenging me; with these grades and GPA I think I can get into a great school, better than a lot of my peers. On the other hand, I'm thinking that my lack of course rigor will turn off a lot of schools.</p>

<p>So, I basically have NO IDEA AT ALL where I stand as far as caliber of schools! My straight A+'s this year are good AND bad--good that it's impressive I maintained at least a 97 in all of the classes, and bad because I have NO IDEA how ANY college will react to seeing my transcript!</p>

<p>It's just frustrating to think about it because it makes me wonder a lot--i.e., could I get into an Ivy? Notre Dame (random example)? G.W.? My transcript does not give me any idea at all!</p>

<p>Sorry for the long post!</p>

<p>Thanks :)</p>

2

<p>I understand your viewpoint and concerns but to answer your question, you should be looking at a variety of different caliber schools - reach, meet and safeties.</p>

3

<p>No AP classes? Ouch. Colleges usually put down course rigor as one of the most important criteria. I think ND and GW would be high matches</p>

4

<p>It’s very hard to say-- you should speak to your guidance counselor to determine what kids in the past at your school have been able to do with similar accomplishments.</p>

<p>For many schools, having a 3.5 in all APs would look more impressive than your 4.0. For some schools, this may not matter as much. Why didn’t your teachers and/or guidance counselor push you into advance classes? I guess that’s all in hindsight, but specifically colleges will recognize that you did not feel up to the challenge of taking on college level work which was the norm for kids at your school at your level.</p>

<p>My guess is you’re looking at flagship state U if you’ve got a strong one. If not, your best bet will probably be to look at LACs because they tend to have less of a draw despite their extremely high quality education for various reasons.</p>

<p>I can’t speak for all Ivys, but you’d have little shot at Brown without some extenuating circumstances.</p>

5

<p>There’s a difference between taking honors classes because you’re lazy and taking honors classes that, in your words, “moderately challenge” you. Not every student in the country takes APs, and though of course it’d be good for you to challenge yourself academically, if you really don’t think you’d do well in AP classes and you are challenged by the honors classes you’re taking there’s nothing explicitly wrong with taking honors courses. By all means, take an AP class or two next year if you want to, but just remember that honors is still strong.</p>

6

<p>I have to be honest if you plan on applying to very competitive schools then you may be in for some “nasty” surprises in the spring. I think it’s great that you have such a high GPA and your SAT’s are also pretty good but you have to consider that many canidates that apply to top schools max out their schools AP classes by the time they graduate so…I would definitely say apply to as many competitive schools as you like but have matches and safety schools in place and hopefully the best will come.</p>

<p>In my case my school only offers 4 APs with no IB/Honors BUT I took three of them and the one I didn’t take was Spanish because I was already in French. I thought that it would look bad that I only took 3 APs but colleges could care less about how you compare to other applicants in course rigor, rather what is important is how you compared to your school’s offered curriculum.</p>

7

<p>If you do not need financial aid apply to a few more higher level schools.</p>

<p>If you need financial aid, still apply to some “reaches” but focus on your state flagship and schools where you are in the upper quartile re SAT’s.</p>

<p>You can improve your already decent SAT’s. Practice and take a course f you have financial resources.</p>

8

<p>The lack of rigor means schools like ivies will not consider you unless your situtation is very unsual such as being a first generation URM.</p>

<p>Your counselor has to check a box rating your schedule in comparison to others at your school. The non recruited athletes and unhooked will almost always have the ‘most rigorous’ box checked.</p>

<p>Next is the matter of your SAT scores which are not highly competitive school scores.</p>

9

<p>If you keep your grades up, raise your SATs a bit (say, another 80 points), and write good applications, you should have some excellent choices. Some of the other posters may sound a little discouraging, but you have to understand that the current competitiveness cuts two ways. Yes, it means you may not have a great shot at getting into the most famous, most prestigious schools. But it also means that if you do not make it into one of your reach schools, you’ll be in good company. There will be plenty of other good students at your safety or match schools.</p>

<p>Another thing to understand is that, if you are open minded, you may discover you like some of those safety and match schools even better than the reaches.</p>

<p>There are quite a few interesting LACs in the midwest. One of my sons wound up one. He had very high SATs and a ton of IB courses, but after considering all his options, was not interested in any of the Ivies (except Brown, but he ruled that out too). He will attend a wonderful school that is attracting more and more excellent students. There are other great choices all over the country. Whitman College in Washington State, Macalester in St. Paul MN, Oberlin, Kenyon are some examples. Or as others have mentioned, your state flagship.</p>

10

<p>

</p>

<p>Logically, the increased competitiveness means that some kids with a stronger record than the OP will not get into the most selective schools, which means that they will drop down a level, displacing some kids who once would have gotten into said schools, and so on down the line. So I can’t see how it is good news for him.</p>

<p>OP, if I read you right, you take probably 5 (6 would be better) academic subjects per year, but have only taken 2 per year at the honors level and none at all at the AP level. <em>IF</em> the classes you took were consistently offered at a higher level, you do indeed have a bit of a rigor problem. (At our HS, for example, they do not offer “honors” in languages until the fifth year, which is AP. So students aren’t dinged for not taking honors language courses: they are taking the highest level available.) </p>

<p>If this is the case, it will probably rule out any of the most selective schools unless you have a hook. Ivies are almost certainly out (and your SATs aren’t in that ballpark either). ND would seem like a reach, since your SATs are close to the bottom of their 50% range. Even GW states that rigor is their #1 priority, although your SATs look better there. What, exactly, GW considers to be enough rigor is another question. You may be okay if you have taken all of the science sequence (bio, chem, physics), math through calculus, etc. It would definitely be a good thing to step up your game first semester senior year and take at least one AP and more honors, but you also can’t afford to let your grades drop significantly as a result. You have to do what is realistic for you.</p>

<p>A school like Northeastern or Loyola College in MD would look like a match for you to me. GW is reachier.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The OP is skirting the bottom 25% in SATs for Oberlin and Macalester, and just a bit better at Kenyon and Whitman. I’d say they are all reaches. Better to look at Muhlenberg and Allegheney.</p>

11

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, to take Macalester, the OP is right at the 25% line for CR, slightly above for M. That’s why I suggested he raise his SATs by 80 points or so. He’s already well above the median for writing (at about the 75% in fact). </p>

<p>So, we’ve established that a school like Macalester is a more appropriate reach than an Ivy. That’s not to say it’s a super improbably long reach. And there are other, less selective (but still good) midwestern LACs besides Mac. </p>

<p>I’m not familiar with Muhlenberg. I did meet a very nice tour guide at St. Mary’s College of Maryland who said Muhlenberg had been her first choice, but she did not get in. I was very impressed with SMCM, though. Beautiful campus and waterfront setting, faculty with impressive credentials. Median SATs are in the low-mid 600s for each component as I recall. But I know of some kids there with much higher stats, one in particular who was wait-listed at Amherst and Haverford. A kid like that, with SATs well into the 700s per component, might comprise 10-15% of the student body at SMCM, or more like 40% at Mac. Those kids are not yet displacing all the lower-scoring applicants to those schools. Ivy league shut-outs would be more likely to wind up at the flagship state universities, not at second or third tier LACs.</p>

12

<p>

</p>

<p>Easier said than done, perhaps? I thought he was asking for what seems realistic with what he has. But sure, higher SATs would help. So would As in 4 or 5 AP courses first semester of senior year. :)</p>

<p>BTW, OP, what is your estimated class rank, if your school ranks. I’m assuming your 4.1 GPA is weighted?</p>

13

<p>

</p>

<p>Well, yes, but not unheard of. My son’s score went up by about that much just on his CR between two sittings, without any test prep. Maybe that’s not too common (I really don’t know) but I would think with some preparation over the summer, the OP’s SATs could go up enough to have a shot at a school like Mac. My S was accepted there, by the way, with merit aid. He did not have anywhere near straight A’s in his Junior and Senior years (though he did have the “rigor”).</p>

<p>35 students from our HS have applied to Muhlenberg in recent years. 9 applied with SATs above 1800 and all 9 of them were accepted. The only students who were rejected outright (not waitlisted at least) had GPAs of 2.5 or below. So unless I’m missing something, Muhlenberg seems to be a very comfortable match for someone with the OP’s stats. If Muhlenberg (or Dickinson) is a comfortable match, then Mac would seem to be a reasonable reach. The Princeton Review ranks Muhlenberg a 94 for selectivity, Macalester a 96. The OP does not have to move his M & CR up very far to be well within Macalester’s middle 50% range.</p>

<p>Anyway, assuming we agree a Muhlenberg College is the right caliber of school for a match, is that the kind of school the OP likes? Private, national universities of similar selectivity might include American University or Boston University. If you are looking for a reach among private national universities, then possibly NYU.</p>

<p>By the way, OP, have you talked to your Guidance Counsellor? He/she ought to have some idea how far a 4.x from your school, with your courses, could carry you.</p>

14

<p>I’ve looked at some literature regarding coaching effects on SAT scores
(in particular, Evaluating SAT Coaching: Gains, Effects, and Self-Selection by Derek C. Biggs, available on Google Books). Some commercial test prep companies attribute combined score increases of 100 points or more to their programs. However, independent studies estimate the effects of coaching on combined test scores at more like 20-60 points.</p>

<p>As for just re-taking the test, according to the College Board,

Source: [url=<a href=“College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools”>SAT Registration – SAT Suite | College Board]SAT</a> Retaking the Test<a href=“but%20it’s%20not%20clear%20to%20me%20if%20this%20effect%20is%20defined%20to%20exclude%20re-takers%20who%20had%20any%20coaching”>/url</a></p>

15

<p>I am in a very similar situation as the OP. What do you think the OP’s chance is at Boston College?</p>

16

<p>I say this to all people who ask (usually): Apply to whatever schools you like. You will NEVER know the outcome unless you go for it. You DON’T want to regret not having applied to your dream school simply because of pessimism or that you were inspired by pessimistic CCers.</p>

<p>Just start looking for some schools that you can be passionate about and NAIL that college application essay. You won’t believe the number of star-studded high-achieving students that apply for schools with ZERO passion and then whine when students of lower caliber who show passion get in OVER them.</p>

17

<p>I second Hope2getrice with a VERY important caveat: before you look for high-caliber schools to fall in love with, find a safety that you LOVE first. I would be conservative and define safety as a school you are likely to get into if you had a 3.0 UW GPA in all honors (but no/few AP) courses.</p>

18

<p>How things have changed…back when I was an undergrad, the OP’s states would have made him/her a contender at just about any college in the country.</p>

<p>A 4.0 is still pretty impressive, even without the APs. There are still a lot of excellent schools that would be safeties-to-matches, depending on where you’re from, EC’s, etc. I’m guessing these would be quite possible or certain: Boston U., NYU., GWU, Villanova, Fordham, Allegheney, Denison, U of New Hampshire, U of Vermont, Hobart and William Smith, Washington and Jefferson, Clemson, Virginia Tech, Indiana, Colorado, Kansas, Santa Clara, Denver, Wisconsin, Pittsburgh, North Carolina State, Clark U. (Mass.), RPI, and Union (NY), Miami (OH), Miami (FL), Syracuse, and Florida State.</p>

<p>Although I think you should be proud of those SATs, there are some really tough places to get into that they might work against you…so you might check out some places that don’t require test scores, like Bates and Holy Cross.</p>

<p>I don’t know how much the lack of APs will hurt you, but it can’t hurt to apply to places at the level of BC and Wake Forest.</p>

19

<p>NYU would not be a safety for someone with no APs and limited honors classes–at best a match if you apply ED and don’t require FA.</p>

20

<p>Don’t both BU and NYU have divisions for students who have credentials a bit lower than in the main parts of the undergraduate program…places where students like the OP could prove himself/herself?</p>