I refuse to take out a loan to pay for the children's college

Parents Forum
261

<p>"Again, in our area, it is the norm for kids to get substantial merit aid through various outlets, mostly the colleges themselves and I know of NO ONE that would just pay the sticker price for ANY college… "</p>

<p>SteveMA, no one is arguing that it’s difficult to find a school where one doesn’t have to pay sticker price - it’s getting the price down to where one is paying virtually nothing that most of us feel is very unrealistic. </p>

<p>My son applied to nine schools and received merit aid - ranging from a low of $18K/year to a high of $30K/year at 7 schools, need based at 1 ($40k/yr) and nothing from 1 (our state school.) That still left a gap from between $19k/yr to $30K/year. </p>

<p>We also found that the higher up the food chain the school the more money he received in merit and the highest USNWR ranked school gave him the most $ of them all - which happened to be need based - so for us, the “better” the school, the less expensive it was out-of pocket for us.</p>

262

<p>Steve, </p>

<p>What were your kids’ class ranks and scores like? I know you’re loathe to provide specifics, but ballpark? If your kids had average scores (1500 or 20) or average grades (50th %ile class rank), and got these results then I’m inclined to say “wow, that really is possible”. </p>

<p>I also want to ask how much you spent for your kids to be in the position to get these scholarships. You mention buying a car to transport the instrument, and that the instrument (I think you said was a bari sax) cost as much as the car. So right there, before gas, and insurance, and possibly paying for lessons, you’ve got a pretty substantial investment.</p>

263

<p>That is an interesting point, how much have some parents spent on tutors, coaches, lessons, summer programs etc, just to receive a few thousand dollars in scholarships?</p>

264

<p>CuriousJane–the kids class rank is in the 15% at a suburban high school. Test scores are 30. We didn’t buy a car for the kids, we bought a new car for us and just kept the old car with 180,000 miles on it for the kids to use. They don’t take private lessons and his instrument is free to use from the school. We did a rent to own program for his alto sax starting in 5th grade though. They have never had a tutor. We have put about $500 into “lessons” for DD’s sport over the years. In otherwords, we have VERY little invested into the kids’ activities. </p>

<p>I get what you are saying. We have friends that spend $3000/MONTH on their daughter’s soccer club. She is getting a scholarship that is about $3000/YEAR. </p>

<p>The point for DD and her sport was to enjoy her sport through college and have it help her pay for college. The program she found is very low key and takes minimal time. None of the schools she applied to have high pressure programs. </p>

<p>Yes, our kids ended up getting more money then we though, great for us. But like I’ve said several times, their net price at all but a few schools was in our target range. This school was just better. </p>

<p>Price out what it would cost your child to attend Truman State, one of the schools that gets a lot of love here that the kids applied to. It’s all online for anyone to look into…</p>

265

<p>Ok, I did the NPC for Truman, based on my son’s 30 ACT/1910 SAT. </p>

<p>Cost Calculation
Direct Costs:
Out-of-state Tuition $12,714<br>
Room & Board (average 2-person room) $7,503 more info
Activities Fee $84<br>
Athletics Fee $100<br>
Student Health Fee $54<br>
Freshman Orientation Fee $315 more info
TOTAL Direct Costs $20,770 </p>

<p>Scholarship Estimate:
Automatic Scholarships $8,000<br>
Non-Resident Tuition Scholarship $5,000<br>
President’s Combined Ability $3,000<br>
TOTAL Estimated Award $8,000 </p>

<p>Net Price Calculation:
Direct Costs $20,770<br>
Estimated Award - $8,000<br>
Estimated Annual Net Price* $12,770<br>
(Does not include competitive awards)</p>

<p>Cost Calculation With Indirect Costs
Indirect costs are based on national averages. Costs vary based on student needs and preferences.</p>

<p>Estimated Indirect Costs:<br>
Parking $105<br>
Books & Supplies $1,000<br>
Transportation Expenses $1,500<br>
Personal /Miscellaneous Expenses $2,500<br>
TOTAL Estimated Indirect Costs $5,105 </p>

<p>Net Price Calculation
Direct Costs $20,770<br>
Indirect Costs + $5,105<br>
Estimated Award - $8,000<br>
Estimated Annual Net Price* $17,875<br>
(Does not include competitive awards) </p>

<p>$17,875/yr it would cost for him to attend. </p>

<p>Still seems to me to be a lot of dosh for an 18 year old to come up with on their own.</p>

266

<p>emilybee - I don’t think Steve was saying that the ranking of the school mattered, but whether it was in your price range when all was said and done. I agree with you that “better” schools may be much more affordable for some. I know in our particular scenario, if my DS gets accepted to his Lottery school that has a $60,000 plus price tag, our cost (if we did the NPC right) is $3,300. So of all our schools, the most expensive price tag is the least expensive out of pocket. Now if only he will get accepted!! :)</p>

267

<p>Where did I say they are coming up with it on their own? As for indirect costs, those will come at EVERY school. Annual real net price is $12,700 for comparison purposes. Books are the hard one to figure because those cost vary by major SO much, transpotation and personal expenses–what do those include? I don’t spend $2000 on “personal care” for the kids now…anyway.</p>

<p>$12,700-lets use that figure–how much are the parents putting in? Then, summer jobs, no reason a healthy kid can’t earn $3000 in the summer working full time or a couple part time jobs. Now you are at $9,700. Let’s round that up and you have $1000/month to pay for–can the parents come up with half of that because again, working 20/week while in school is VERY easy to do and will make up the other half of that $1000/month. It’s just not THAT hard to find a school that is THIS affordable, it just ISN’T. Even at the $17,000, add in $5500 in Federal loans–which sorry, if you don’t have the money now, you get to take loans, it’s just reality. It puts you right back at that $12,7000 figure–go from there. </p>

<p>Same goes for almost every LAC in the Midwest. With merit aid the figure gets you to that $20,000 mark, give or take. Add the same numbers above…throw in a couple small scholarships on the side and boom, you are paying very little to go to college.</p>

268

<p>mommaof5–we found that as well. The least expensive list price ended up being the second most expensive school on the kids list. Our net price at DS’s lottery school is higher and he knows he will have to win some big scholarships to attend, as well as take out at least the full federal loan offerings, but that is HIS choice. WE will not take out any loans on his behalf. We have told him we will contribute a LITTLE more if he gets into that school and the numbers work out but there is no way we will pay full cost there (also in the $60,000 range). He is in full agreement. He LOVES his second choice as well–and his 3-8th choices and would be fine attending his 9-10th choices if they come up with the dollars for him.</p>

269

<p>I’m not really arguing that my particular kid will or won’t have opportunities, it’s too early to say, but I feel confident that we’re in a good position. I’m a teacher though so I am thinking of lots of other kids when I react to your statement about “most”. </p>

<p>I went to the Truman State website. I ran it a variety of different ways. Each time I used a 3.2 GPA, and a 49th %ile class rank since those seemed like “average” for me.</p>

<p>First time I used an EFC of $16,600 since that’s what I got when I put our family’s stats into the calculator, and a CR + M SAT of 1150 since that’s average at one of the HS’s were looking at. – Net cost: $20,375, plus a $5,500. I got the same result with the average SAT nationwide (1000) and at the urban high school we’re looking at (870).</p>

<p>I then ran it again with an EFC of 0, since that’s the reality of many of my students. This time I got a Pell, bringing the net cost after Pell and Stafford down to $14,825.</p>

<p>This, of course, makes the assumption that the kid gets in to Truman states. For the average kid from HS 1 that seems like a match, as their scores are in the 25th - 75th bracket and Truman has a high acceptance rate. For the average kid nationwide or from HS 2 it seems like a reach.</p>

270

<p>In our area, local outside scholarships are one-time and heavily targeted to students who have done thousands of hours of community service or who are from underrepresented groups. This is fine by me – I was glad at awards night to hear about some of the amazing things these kids have done and to NOT see the “usual suspects” collect all the honors.</p>

271

<p>So if the parent contribution is going toward tuition and the student is working all summer and 20 hours/week during the year to make up the difference, who is paying for books, transportation and entertainment?</p>

272

<p>Definitely no loans.</p>

273

<p>I like the idea of having the student work for books and entertainment money. He works now, has a job set up for the summer and has a line on a possible internship the following summer. And he can also take out the $5500. My kid eats a LOT, takes 30 minute showers, and is always burning electricity. I’m thinking we are already paying a good part of college room and board charges right now. With some serious belt tightening we can pay our EFC, and I will consider taking a small parent loan to make up the difference if necessary. He finished his college applications by Dec 1 so he would have time to apply for outside scholarships but has had very little success finding anything he is eligible for. But he did try.</p>

274

<p>I think that $2,500 is, if anything, low for personal expenses. When I think about what I paid for that I’d consider a “need” during college I think about expenses such as (estimation for what it might cost a day now in parentheses)</p>

<p>Subway fare to and from my job ($50 a month in school year, $100 in summer)
Lunch every day at work in the summer, a couple of meals a week in the school year for days when I worked through the hours the cafeteria was open ($40 a month in school year, $80 in the summer)
Cellphone ($40 a month, year round)
Shampoo, soap, toothpaste, deodorant, sunblock etc . . ($20 a month, year round)
Computer, initial cost plus repairs updated virus protection (let’s say $1440 across the 4 years so $30 a month)
Clothing ($20 a month)</p>

<p>Assuming nothing extra – no car insurance/gas/parking/payment/repairs, no going in on a pizza, or going to movies, or job interview that requires a taxi because of a funky location, or spending $100 on an interview outfit, find a friend to cut your hair. Assuming a 2 month summer that comes to $2580.</p>

275

<p>“Where did I say they are coming up with it on their own?”</p>

<p>I took that from what you posted your DD was contributing to her COA. I believe after all was said and done you will be paying virtually nothing (6K/yr ish) with her portion accounting for $28K. I am also assuming that $6K/yr figure is way below your EFC - correct me if I am wrong. </p>

<p>And a lot of what your DD is getting - merit/outside scholarships, etc…don’t go to kids with lower stats (20-25 ACT’/3.0 averages, etc.)</p>

<p>I think it’s unrealistic to assume what your kids have gotten is achievable for most kids as Curious Jane’s calcs show. </p>

<p>I think your kids are outliers (in a good sort of way, but still.) </p>

<p>And, tbh, I think a lot of high achieving kids don’t want to go to “directional” State U. They want to be at schools filled with other high achieving kids like themselves.</p>

276

<p>Re: spending money/personal expenses. I agree with Jane that the figure quoted seems low. I recall heading to college in Aug '82 with $1000 that I have saved from school year and summer jobs. I was on the college meal plan so I had expected $1000 to last the year. It was gone by Christmas so I worked as much as I could during Christmas break and then found an awful food service job on campus for the second semester. I spent money on textbooks, school supplies, clothing, hair cuts, travel home or wherever I went on break and personal care items. (No computers or cell phones back then.) </p>

<p>I would have to imagine that these costs are much higher now. To any parents who have been through this recently, what sort of annual spending money has your student needed? As a mother of boys, I sense their spending will be lower than mine was.</p>

277

<p>I think my kid spends about $3000/yr - but he is in Maine (nowhere to go and spend a lot of money) and his meal plan is unlimited (everyone at his school’s is) - so not spending a lot extra on eating out. </p>

<p>Last year he ran out of money around April. </p>

<p>He pays for all his books, clothes, personal care items, entertainment, gas for his car. This year he went to Montreal over Oct. break with friends and is driving to Florida on his Feb. break and going to DC on his April break so I’m figuring he is going to run out of money, for sure, before the end of the year. He should, however, get a nice income tax refund, which will help.</p>

278

<p>Sorry SteveMA, but working 20 hours a week during the semester is not “very easy to do”. yes, it is possible to do, but I wouldn’t describe it as easy; and if your kid is being forced to spend their 20 hours on their feet serving in the cafeteria (i.e. not a job where he or she is studying during the quiet moments or getting real world, professional experience) I think that’s tough. Back in the day- “scholarship students” at my university were capped at 10 hours a week of on campus employment; I augmented that with a few hours of tutoring on Sundays with middle school kids in the community-- but a 20 hour a week job would have severely impacted my GPA as well as prevented me from doing all the things you are presumably sending your kid to college to experience.</p>

<p>Madeline Albright is speaking at a lunch sponsored by the Poli Sci department- you want your kid who is interested in the Foreign Service to be able to attend. Frank Gehry is giving a seminar on “Architecture and the Modern City”- you want your Urban Planning kid to have the flexibility to go. Ted Turner is moderating a discussion on New Media… etc. Look at all the fantastic things happening on college campuses every week (not to mention the U’s own symphony orchestra, student performances of all types, etc.). Yes- a job is important. But to have your kid miss every single “extra” ?</p>

<p>That’s tough.</p>

<p>I am pretty frugal- and even I didn’t want my kids working so much that it dragged down their grades, prevented them from showing up at professor’s office hours and tutoring sessions, or taking advantage of world class opportunities (which are often free- but you need the time to show up.)</p>

<p>Yes, if your kid is a skilled programmer he or she can get a campus job for more than $10 an hour. But don’t budget an unreasonable amount for on campus work.</p>

<p>I just don’t see all this math adding up. And my kids experience with merit was that the significant awards went to kids with significant need… which is terrific, and I take nothing away from kids who need every cent to make the math add up. But my own kids awards- a thousand here, $500 there, etc. were very nice but did not in any way bridge a significant financial gap.</p>

<p>re: Books- yes, you want your kids to be thrifty, not to spend what they don’t need, etc. But also remember- do you want your kid to be saving $300 on a textbook by borrowing from a friend- and then flunk the class (which has cost thousands) because the friend needed it the week before exams, or left school halfway through the semester and now the bookstore is out of stock and the nearest library that has a copy is 300 miles away and not on interlibrary loan with your kids college?</p>

<p>Jeez.</p>

279

<br>

<br>

<p>I worked about 18 hours a week but the job was pretty friendly for doing that. It was clerical/secretarial and it was second shift. Things would be busy until about 7 PM and then it was typically quiet after that so I could study.</p>

<p>I have two coworkers that worked a ton of hours while going to school and they worked as second-shift security guards. They did their rounds but otherwise were able to study.</p>

<p>It is possible to do if you get the right job. Yes, you miss out on doing stuff that other students get to do but get work experience that others don’t have. I worked in a hospital, doing all sorts of things, sometimes moving bodies (dead and alive), it was a great work experience.</p>

280

<p>I worked 15 hrs a week in the Financial Aid office and loved it. The office closed at 4:30 and they always worked around my class schedule - I averaged 15 credit hours a semester. My first full time job was at a small LAC in their FA office running there “non-traditional” program, so it ended up being great experience also.</p>