I think she had this reaction because deep inside she knew that @Pheebers was correct, but was in denial. It’s always easier to blame the messenger. Hopefully, she will reconsider.
^^^ I hope this is the situation. If you didn’t care about her you could have nothing then sat back and watched things unfold as they will. One of the best lessons I learned from CC is that getting accepted to a college is only half the equation, paying for it is the other half and probably more important. I wish the OP and her friend the best.
It’s all about how you say it. The OP said she was gentle but " that’s too much to borrow" is sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong. What would have probably gone down better is, “well you might be able to get a loan from X at X rate that’s going to cost you X per month for the next X years. I don’t know if that’s what you wanted to do since of course it could hurt your retirement?”
I know Op was just trying to help but friend didn’t ask IF she should take out loans but rather how to. Unlike here it’s pretty different to be giving advice to real life friend who didn’t ask for it.
I know I’m sensitive on this topic because I had a friend who literally asked me every time I saw her when my kids were applying " What’s her FINANCIAL safety. The schools she’s applying to cost 60K a year full freight, what will you do if you don’t get a good package". I hadn’t asked for her advice. Now I was evasive at first , so that probably egged her on because honestly I thought our finances were none of her business. Then I told her that we had it all covered in a 529 and she started going on and on about " gee I hope you’ve saved for retirement…you know you shouldn’t sacrifice your future etc" I put on my best " smile and nod face even though I wanted to blurt out “I know you think you know about our finances because our house costs half of what your does but we have millions of dollars in retirement savings so please shut up.”
You did the right thing OP. If this friend cannot accept a different opinion from a friend just trying to help then you might be better off without her. It sounds like she asked for opinions on Facebook. How does a grown woman ask for opinions and then become mad when she gets ones that differ? The whole point in asking for opinions is to get a different take on it and to be told things you did not know or were not aware of. Why ask for opinions and then get mad for receiving what you asked for is crazy.
It is highly likely the OP’s friend is pondering what she considers two bad options. She’ll take what she perceives the easiest first, how can she borrow the money. The OP reminded her that this is probably not a practical option. That means she has to confront the second option, disappointing her daughter. She doesn’t want to confront that right now and it makes her angry. While the second may seem tougher it is likely the kinder option. Putting yourself and your child in a huge debt will bind you for years and even if they got some relief it is unfair to taxpayers. Of course this is all conjecture based on a couple of short paragraphs.
Also believe you did the right thing, even if she is upset. It sounds like you then reached out and apologized, so you have done all you can do. If I didn’t hear from her, I would probably reach out again at some point (after May 1 when the decision is made).
She’s upset…let her cool down. Maybe try contacting her again in a week or two.
It’s not as if you repeatedly, day after day, harangued her over this. That would have been wrong.
You’ve planted a seed…hopefully it will germinate and she’ll tell DD that the dream just can’t happen.
Side note…I wonder if college choice is one of the first times that some parents have said, “no,” to their child?
LOL, I don’t think her daughter is necessarily a selfish monster. I think many kids really don’t understand money that well. I remember at some point in high school telling the kids what our income was, and then going through the expenses and why at the end of the month there just wasn’t that much left. It was an eye opener to them - they had no idea what real estate taxes are, what mortgage payments might be, what food actually costs, what car, health and home insurance cost.
In any event I don’t think you did anything wrong. I’d wait a bit, she probably knows you are right, but is feeling terrible that she can’t give her daughter what she wants to give her.
I did a very similar thing with a friend. In the fall they were so excited about an early acceptance to a dream school. I said that’s great as long as you get an affordable package. This is their first with more than one going to college in the next couple years. A few months later I found out they are looking at more affordable options. I know we learned a lot the first time through the process - CC helped a lot!
Every time someone talks about cosigning loans but is certain their kids will pay them back, I point out all the things that could happen to the student that would make the parents responsible - death, accident, illness, depression, not finishing, etc. Many people do not think about that in advance.
Michelle Singletary, Washington Post often addresses the debt issues. Perhaps an article from her could be shared to make it less personal. She had a good one on Sunday that I cannot find online. But here are some past articles.
http://www.pressherald.com/2017/03/05/michelle-singletary-co-signing-student-loans-a-risky-move/
Or the first time a kid has his/her options significantly limited by (parental) cost constraints. Example could be a kid whose high income parents spent lots of money on private K-12 schools, sports, other ECs, and general high spending habits, but now have no money left for college.
Fwiw, our phrase was, "No college is a dream school, unless they offer the right FA package. "
This is almost definitely the first time she will have said no to her daughter, if she even does. She means well – she had a terrible childhood and an abusive mother, and is incredibly close with her own kids (who are great, and rarely ask for anything) and wants to give them everything. She plans on taking most of the debt on herself – I believe just the Fed loans to her daughter. It’s one of the reasons I feel so awful, but also like I had to say something. She really wanted to give her daughter the dream, and I believe she realistically can’t. She’s a preschool teacher with very little potential for income growth, and 150k in undergrad student loans is a bad idea for anyone. It’s just tough all around.
When it comes to tough talk about money, people always shoot the messenger. I never have these discussions with anyone but family.
I know you tried to help your friend. but if you value her friendship, you should consider apologizing for getting involved. She may have seen your well-intentioned remarks as coming from someone who has something she wants. I think I might also feel a little resentful if a wealthier friend started telling me what I should and should not do with my finances. It would feel patronizing, even if you’re only slightly richer than she is.
All adults have the right to be stupid with their money.
With her emotional baggage, she may go ahead and do what she knows is imprudent.
There is a big difference between telling somebody else how to spend their money, or telling them what they can and can’t afford, versus sharing your own experience around how you made a similar financial decision, or sharing examples of what happened to other people who went down similar paths.
The first is very intrusive, sticking one’s nose into somebody else’s very personal business in a way that many people do find offensive. The second is much less intrusive and leaves it up to the recipient to interpret the message to their own situation.
In reality, we cannot know what other people can or cannot afford, what sacrifices they are willing to make, how much risk they are willing to take – we can only know what we would do if we were in their shoes (and only to the extent that we think we know what their shoes are). You can tell someone the direct consequences of a certain action (e.g. $150K in debt translates to a payment of $XXXX every month for Y years), but you have to leave it up to them to make their own decision. Some parents may well be willing to put themselves into poverty for the rest of their lives in order that their children may advance, even if we personally would not be willing to do so. But it is not for us to judge them (except anonymously on the internet).
WOW does this thread really strike a chord with me!! So many valid points being made here. I have a good, good friend who I believe is headed for a financial train wreck - and it is painful to witness. She asks for my advice all the time.
First, a little background. Her oldest S (one of three - the next is two years younger) is a senior. S is great athlete not a great student - GPA 2.7-2.8? New SAT under 1100. Good football player, not D1 scholarship player, but always a great athlete. He did not get accepted to state public universities - not the top tier or other tiers - would have to go the CC route - which is very popular and by no means an embarrassing choice. many peers choose the CC aligned with the top tier Universities and live in the same city and live the same lifestyle. He also has been successfully recruited for football from small LACs in PA. His takeaway from the coaches initially was that a full ride was coming…I silently thought to myself - I don’t think D3 programs give full rides…but what do i know? Sure enough after application and ACCEPTANCE (what a shocker) - the family is feeling pretty good. Then comes the scholly offer and then financial aid package…long story short - before loans $55k COA is now down to $30K.
Now some background on the family. Mom is a secretary, dad an electrician both pushing 60. hard working people. Went through a bankruptcy in about 2013. live paycheck to paycheck.
When friend received FA package she didn’t know how to evaluate it. I created a spreadsheet so she could see what part of the COA was estimated (travel, personal, etc.) and what was non-negotiable - and what the due dates or payment plans were avail for non-negotiables. (I also told her the personal costs, books, etc - while not paid directly to the college are valid and necessary expenses that must be budgeted for). All along has said she doesn’t want loans. So I thought the spreadsheet would be a good way for her to see that - this JUNE a payment of $X would be due, and every month after that for ten months, then it would begin again - for four years. Surely she would see the light!
Of course now she is considering loans. I and others told her you definitely take the Stafford loans, so that takes care of $6500 (offered perkins too). Also has a state 529 plan (which is a prepaid plan and would go a looooooooonnnnnng way further in home state) which will contribute about $4k per year. So now we are at $20K. she wants to take out additional 10K per year - but this is based on ability to pay $1K a month on a payment plan. She admitted that she got the estimate of what she can afford out of the air - saying “well even CC is going to cost that much for room and board”.
Anyway - you can see where this is going. After she again asked for my opinion - i said these are very personal matters and families have different risk tolerances - and did she have a family member to discuss it with. She discussed with a very successful financial planner cousin - who basically told her - oh yes everyone takes out loans!!! She (financial planner) did not question her estimates on ability to make $1K payments.
One last time - I questioned her whether an in-state CC choice might be a better option - and she replied that she wants this (LAC in PA environment for her son) and just feels it is meant to be.
I vowed to myself to shut my mouth.
The loan route may very well not work with bankruptcy, right? She has not started down that path. Has not even paid the $300 enrollment deposit (due May 1) because had to pay for prom tux. Ouch
Well, I hope the friend comes around and as mentioned she may not even be able to get a loan.
I would have NO problem telling a friend that loans in that amount can be crippling. Not only to her but to her D as well.
Not providing for your own retirement is to hand your problem over to your kids.
No, you can’t MAKE anyone do something but you certainly don’t have to be real sympathetic when they come to cry on your shoulder later.
I feel for the mom. I grew up poor with a single mom and this is exactly the sort of thing that my mom would have done (or tried to do) for me. Me going to a prestigious university was everything to her. It was this big bright spot and a something she could hold up in pride—in a life that really didn’t have much to hold up in pride. It makes me sad when I think about it now as an adult (I was oblivious I’m afraid as a young adult). So my first response to the mom’s situation is empathy.
I would respond with something like “I’m sorry I upset you. That is so wonderful that Susie got into xyz. She worked so hard in school and you must be so proud of her.” Later if she warmed up and wasn’t so angry anymore. I would tell her that CC is a good place for ask for advice about paying for college, but I would be honest and let her know that she is likely to get more advice to not take out large loans than on how to get large loans. So she’d have to wade through that and she’d have to be clear in her post that she wanted to find out the different options for getting large loans for school rather than advice on whether on not to do this.
@pheebers, and your friend has other children? Younger? How is this crippling debt going to affect their lives?
A friend of mine’s older S went to college on a scholarship which he promptly lost due to poor grades. His parents, who could ill afford it, took out $30K in loans so that he could continue. The deal was, I believe, that he could get the scholarship back if he got his GPA up to a qualifying level. Well, he failed to do so, left school, and I believe has not to date finished his BA. Meanwhile, the parents divorced, and the father, who was more or less unemployed at the time, tried to stick my friend with paying of the loans. Neither of them could afford it. Then the younger S graduated from HS. He has LDs, but is a gifted mechanic. His dream was to study and get certified to work on diesel engines. Because of the debt incurred for his brother, his parents could not help him pay for the kind of for profit but apparently legitimate schools that teach this stuff. He tried to get into the military, but they wouldn’t take him because in a classic dumb kid move he had gotten into legal trouble for joy-riding on someone’s recreational vehicle, and unfortunately he had JUST turned 18. Stone out of luck.
I probably would have done exactly what you did in a gentle way. Since you obviously care about the friendship, I would write her a note saying something like, "I’m sorry if I overstepped my bounds. It’s just that I love and care about you and want you to have a secure financial life. I know a little bit about college financing (if you do), having looked into loans myself when X was applying (don’t know if this applies to you, but if it does, you can throw it in there). I’ve just heard so many horror stories about debt piling up, and I don’t want that to happen to your family. That said, have you considered taking out a home equity line of credit from a credit union–something with a lower interest rate?"Your friend is probably feeling very emotional right now, but hopefully if she steps back a bit she will cool off and realize you were only speaking out of love.