I understand rankings are not everything but where do you draw the line?

Parent Cafe
21

<p>Most of us (in the companies I’ve worked and fellows in my business area) know colleges less than HR personnel - less than you expect. I now recognize more school names than before since I start reading cc, due to the age of my kids. However, I know lots of us still draw lines, one at ivy schools vs. non-ivy; one at top schools in general, in an area of (business) specialities, and schools with state names (without north, east, etc) vs. others. After HR screens resume, we pick candidates to interview. When candidates have minimum work experience, the names of the schools become the factor. </p>

<p>I know it is not everywhere. Hopefully few of us. But you should know some of us do.</p>

22

<p>Debt free is a good thing. The top students and almost any school will get good jobs. Companies are aware that there are a few excellent people at every school, and are often willing to consider them. You may have to work a little harder to get some attention, but it should not be a problem.</p>

23

<p>Thank you for the support so far guys.</p>

24

<p>Graduating with a lot of debt, even from what some might percieve to be a better school, can actually limit the number of opportunities you can consider. For example, if you have debt you would not be able to take advantage post graduate internships that can provide important and valuable work experience. In fact, you could not consider any opportunities that did not pay enough to service your debt. You might be forced into taking a position or doing work you are not interested in simply due to your debt obligations. And if you deferred your loans for any reason, the debt would only become increasingly worse. It’s not always the case, but school debt can entrap you in ways hard to anticipate right now. </p>

<p>So, in a way, Toledo would probably provide you with the MOST opportunity upon graduation because you would have more freedom of choice. That’s really important when it comes to building a career.</p>

25

<p>remember too, that college is an investment. If a college nearly free earns $50 k for the first job, but a much more expensive college earns 60k for the first job, but with thousands of debt, which was the better investment? The numbers are of my own example to show a point. The higher priced school MAY start grad off at a slightly higher salary, but likely the costs of debt would lower his net discretionary dough. What if that higher priced school doesn’t lead to start off at a higher salary? That more expensive school could mean a lower standard of living -for years-because of the debt of attending a more expensive school. I’m sure you don’t want to attend a school hoping to have a lower standard of living. Look carefully at expected earnings/debt and give less thought to prestige.
If you can invest $1 to earn $1.10, or invest $.50 to earn $.85 which is the better investment?</p>

26

<p>As a business school prof., I have colleagues at these places and have hung out at both, and don’t see much difference. I can’t speak for the overall university experiences of each, but in terms of the business schools themselves, doesn’t matter. </p>

<p>You might want to look at the career centers of each. That is often a unique, but important component, of business schools. You’ll likely find the same companies and recruiters go to both, and you can likely see stats for undergrad hires.</p>

27

<p>Wow, you guys are great. Thank you very much.</p>

28

<p>save your money and go get your MBA at Wharton, Haas, someplace like that.</p>

29

<p>^I agree with Steven. And I’m a huge fan of MBA education over undergraduate business education. So unless you are just crazy about a business major, do consider that you can get a degree in any undergrad that interests you and still be as likely (if not more likely) to end up with a highly regarded MBA later on. MBA programs seek out diverse classes of students with all kinds of different educational backgrounds, life, and work experiences.</p>

30

<p>So what was wrong with Ohio State that you would look to Iowa? I have to know! Both are the only two big schools that my daughter is considering, with OSU being my alma mater, and Iowa is a popular destination for her high school here in Illinois.</p>

31

<p>Susan- I was never looking at Ohio State, just Iowa and Toledo. The reason I am looking at those two, I think that’s what your asking, is that they both fit what I want in a school and my major as well. I think Ohio State is too big. If you are looking at the rankings posted above, those are graduate school rankings. I’m not quite there yet.</p>

32

<p>not sure if someone mentioned it already, but you might want to check out the Harvard 2+2 program, it’s geared towards students who get an undergraduate degree in a non-business field. </p>

<p>In terms of respect from Wall St. I do not know how it measures up to traditional Harvard MBA school, but it’s worth looking at.</p>

<p>also, i am an undergrad at wharton and i can honestly say that i have much less respect for the MBAs than I do for the fellow undergrads. Some professors do as well…Professor Armstrong (prof of marketing) wrote an op-ed piece for the WSJ in 2004:</p>

<p>about the MBA students: “I have concluded that they do not have skills for making persuasive management presentations, writing management reports, calculating net present value, or managing a group - the list is endless.”</p>

<p>the article was about how MBA students do not learn anything substantial. </p>

<p>i beg to differ; i actually think (at least here at Penn) that the undergrad business experience is better than the MBA experience.</p>

<p>the undergrads are notoriously more competitive across the board than the MBAs are. you have to see them to believe it.</p>

33

<p>Armstrong is not alone in voicing his concerns about business education. Unfortunately, that is not just confined to criticizing MBAs- it’s across the board, and there are may valid issues about business education today. We see these concerns at the undergraduate and graduate level. Recruiters see it too. </p>

<p>I’ve met few professors in business who would encourage their own children to get an undergraduate degree in business. I’m sure you are getting one of the best educations out there, so don’t take me too seriously (you are fortunate to be where you are), but it’s simply difficult (and at times nonsensical) to teach some aspects of business to those without work experience. It’s why most professors prefer teaching executives over MBAs, and MBAs over undergraduates (though I personally have a preference in the reverse order). I have strong confidence that we can teach undergrads the technical skills and buzzwords they need; it’s quite another matter to teach them the more abstract, ephemeral, but more important issues such as managing complexity, competing constituencies, and strategic and critical decision making.</p>

34

<p>You are probably right in that the concerns extend beyond MBA students.</p>

<p>In terms of “teaching” competition, though, I think penn does a good job. For some, it’s even too much; Wharton breeds competition. </p>

<p>As a 1st semester freshman, you are mandated to take a class called Management 100. It’s a semester long consulting project with a real local small business. You are graded on how you work within a team and by the output (the client grades that part).</p>

<p>The problem is that there are 10 people in a group (randomly assigned), yet you can only give out 3 A’s to each group and the rest are B’s and C’s. But on top of that, the OTHER team members are the ones that grade you (not entirely, but without a doubt, they make or break your grade).</p>

<p>At the end of the semester, each team member sits surrounded by the other 9 team members plus the TA assigned to the group. Each then delivers criticism about you in front of the whole group; it goes on for about an hour. Luckily, we had a dynamite group; other groups were not so lucky and some members ended up crying. As you can imagine, the “office” politics can get pretty brutal during the semester. As harsh as it sounds, this is what a lot of business is like (without the whole open criticism part), and this class really “pushes you in the water,” if you will.</p>

<p>Afterward, you assign grades to other group members, and are limited to a certain number of A’s, B’s and C’s.</p>

<p>A lot of the Wharton classes require teamwork throughout the semester, although that is the only notable one where your teammates openly grade you.</p>

<p>So, with respect, in terms of “teaching” competition and interaction amongst peers, I must disagree with you that bschools fail to prepare their students adequately. Again, I can only speak for Wharton.</p>

<p>I do agree with you that there is not enough emphasis on critical decision making. Also, I also notice that a LOT of the stuff I learn does not really apply in the real world (I worked at Merrill last summer), probably because in the real world, all those convenient assumptions that provide the context in which we learn do not hold.</p>

<p>I see a lot of problems with the bschool model and I know some peers do as well. But I just don’t know of a better way to prepare for a career in business than going to a school like this (despite what Mr. Buffet thinks of bschools).</p>