Where the rubber meets the road...

Parent Cafe
1

<p>So, here we are - College selection season v.2012. Are we parents going to feed the monster that is "the price of perception?" Whether you have to lever everything you got? or you can find all the tuition money your S or D needs between the cushions of your sofa (i.e. super rich), at what point, if there is that point, does the public cry UNCLE!?</p>

<p>Every year we read about skyrocketing tuition; an education bubble. And here I sit, watching the FA offers roll in from well intention-ed, well meaning and regionally recognized Colleges and Universities, legitimately thinking about agreeing to send my D to a $50k a year, OOS "Public Ivy" offering almost no aid, simply because she was accepted... really!?</p>

<p>I have all the ammo I need to make the responsible choice! An Ivy League study of its OWN reinforces this; "Princeton professor and economist Alan Krueger and his fellow researcher Stacy Berg Dale released a study that found that when a student performed high enough to enter an Ivy League school, but instead went to a second-tier school, they earned just as much money as their Ivy League counterparts." A driven, ambitious student remains a driven, ambitious student no matter where they go to school.</p>

<p>Read more: The</a> Value Of An Ivy League Education</p>

<p>and;</p>

<p>"Consider the pricing decision at universities just below the super-elites. To charge well below the acknowledged leaders might signal lower quality, not at all the message they wish to convey. So Duke ($40,575), Emory ($39,158), University of Southern California ($41,022), Notre Dame ($39,919), Cornell ($39,666) and Washington University in St. Louis ($40,374) price themselves right with or even slightly above the leaders.</p>

<p>Tuition and fees at top liberal arts colleges — Pomona ($39,394), Amherst ($40,862) and Swarthmore ($39,600) — are similarly grouped.</p>

<p>“Prestige” and “quality” are in the eyes of the beholder. Wannabes price themselves accordingly. Ursinus College acknowledged, when it sharply raised tuition, that it did so to build the perception of quality. Claremont McKenna, neighbor to Harvey Mudd College, raised its tuition when it realized it was gaining nothing by being priced below its competition.</p>

<p>The fact that tuitions are set to five significant figures implies precise calculation. But pricing is a marketing, not a cost accounting, decision." Thus: Who is to blame for escalating tuitions, the “suppliers” of higher education or the “demanders”?</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/education/edlife/edl-17notebook-t.html?_r=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/education/edlife/edl-17notebook-t.html?_r=1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I have all the information I need. And here I sit.</p>

2

<p>I don’t have all the information I need but glance at the “do low income students go to college” and I have to wonder how much location plays into the 'average" salary from various schools. An average salary of $50K from a Harvard grad that gets a job in Boston, NYC or DC isn’t going to go very far, but that 40K in St. Louis is going to give you a comfortable life right out of college. Is that extra money you spent at Harvard worth it, NO. Now, if you get a free ride at Harvard because you meet the income guidelines, I would have a hard time turning that down. If you don’t meet the income guidelines for a pretty cheep ride and got accepted there, the merit aid you will most likely be offered elsewhere trumps the Harvard name–I think anyway…</p>

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<p>Sort this list;</p>

<p>[Top</a> Midwestern Colleges By Salary Potential](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/midwestern-colleges.asp]Top”>Payscale Best Schools by Salary Potential)</p>

<p>Take out the top 7 (engineering and mining schools) and there isn’t 10k annual difference in starting median salaries for the next 35+ schools on the list.</p>

<p>Like I said - all the information is right there in front of me. And I still ponder.</p>

4

<p>Ok, more of my unofficial research–apartments near these schools-picked one off the list randomly–College of the Ozarks-average starting salary $27,000 (one of the lower ones on the list)–craigslist listing for a new 2 bedroom apartment in a gated community $415/month utilities paid–comes with state of the art fitness room stainless steel appliances and granite in the kitchen in Lebanon, MO (Lake of the Ozarks listing site). These are townhome style rentals. That is a very manageable rent for that salary especially since utilities are included for one person-about 1/4 take home after average taxes, health insurance, 401K, etc.</p>

<p>Compare that to the 1 bedroom I found in “Brighton Center” Boston (no idea where this is) that I picked because it was the least expensive one I came across at $1500/month. That is half of your take home pay, not including utilities or taking out anything for health insurance, 401K’s, etc.</p>

5

<p>I’ve seen this similar debate over and over here. Basically you pick the school that fits and you can afford. </p>

<p>A smart motivated kid will do well in a whole host of different situations. Where people differ is their opinion on if the experience of the elite school in and of itself is worth it to them and their financial situation. Some will say yes, some will say no. </p>

<p>Hubby and I are walking billboards for doing well from mediocre colleges. We did well, but we want something different for our kids. </p>

<p>And don’t forget, maybe an apartment is dirt cheap in the Ozarks, but then you have to live in the Ozarks. I can’t imagine <em>I</em> would enjoy that, but for others, it may be heaven on earth.</p>

6

<p>^ that’s a good point. Are we buying “experiences” for our kids? or are we buying “education?” Education is something we (should) expect a decent ROI on… Experiences are life fulfilling events (like a good vacation).</p>

<p>I guess people promote and go to college for different reasons.</p>

7

<p>eyemamom–perhaps if you went to school there you would like the area and that is really the point. A fair number of kids work in the general vicinity of either where they grew up or where they went to college. I think that has a lot to do with the overall college selection process for many as well. </p>

<p>I would NOT enjoy living in the Boston area AT ALL and would never consider Harvard because of that…</p>

8

<p>Every year I post about this…the difference in starting salaries is not that great…an English major is worth X, an econ major is worth Y and so on. Starting engineer salaries are tightly compacted with a slight tip to Cal Tech and MIT. [NACE:</a> Home](<a href=“NACE - Page not found”>Redirect Page) publishes a survey every year by major, by industry, by position… if you can get your hands on a copy from your HR department it’s interesting reading…the executive summary is free. Recruiters carefully price jobs so that no one is an outlier. The ONLY job/industry that appears to me to value the college over the degree is wall street and who knows how much longer that bubble will last. Some will argue that the big consulting firms are also college name aware, but I’ve not yet been convinced of that at least on these forums.</p>

9

<p>@SteveMA, some of the most pertinent advice given to my D was while visiting KU. They expressly admitted - “our job pipeline runs from Lawrence through KC to St. Louis, if you see yourself working along that beltway? than we’re your school!” Well, my D didn’t, and it was quickly crossed off the list.</p>

<p>Where you want to live and work should be an important selection criteria because it should be where your college is “connected.”</p>

10

<p>git–oddly enough I have reservations about our S going to an Ivy Caliber in the midwest for that same reason vs the small state school that is currently #2 on his list that I would be willing to bet 99% of the people here have never heard of :), not so much that he wouldn’t like to live in the area of that Catholic Disneyland but that they aren’t as well connected in the industry he is currently thinking about. I think he will be fine as we have some friends in that industry and it’s a high demand field but he would have to do more of the work himself to prep for internships, etc. vs the weekly recruiting trips the various companies make to that “unknown” campus.</p>

11

<p>With regard to your comment on KU, giterdone, I guess … But, really? When I think about the people who work with and for me in Chicago (in health care marketing), it doesn’t shake out that way. The people in my office do include several grads from in-state schools (U. of I., Northern Illinois, Illinois State) and from private and public favorites in neighboring states (Indiana U., Marquette, St. Louis U., University of Michigan). But we’ve also got grads from NYU, St. John’s U., 'Bama, Carnegie-Mellon, somewhere in Florida, Davidson College and the University of Nebraska, to name just a few “foreign” schools (I’d not have known to be impressed by the Davidson name except for them landing in the Final Four one year; I hired their grad, some years out from his UG years I should add, based on his qualifications). I’m certain it’s different in different fields, but I can tell you it has never been a meaningful factor in hiring in all my years (20) at a major academic medical center.</p>

<p>And, just since you mentioned KU, I have to add that one of the most impressive people I work with, a colleague in another department, is a Kansas grad.</p>

12

<p>I think when you are talking about “big” state universities-name recognition is national only because every state has one and unless you are a complete dolt or are brand new to the US, you should know where Kansas is at least :D. </p>

<p>I know several people at various Kansas State schools so I am probably more familiar with them then most people around here would be.</p>

13

<p>Giterdone, have you met annasdad?</p>

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<p>When I moved from NYC (where i grew up) to Ohio, more than one fellow NYer thought potatoes would be growing in my yard. Sigh.</p>

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<p>Go Denison! :)</p>

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<p>see Dolt…:D.</p>

<p>I’ve heard worse… unfortunately…</p>

16

<p>It’s a classic New Yorker poster cover-type thing. “What’s between here and L.A. again?”</p>

<p><a href=“http://strangemaps.files.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2007/02/newyorker2.JPG[/url]”>http://strangemaps.files.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2007/02/newyorker2.JPG&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

17

<p>“but instead went to a second-tier school, they earned just as much money . . .”</p>

<p>That has nothing to do with education.</p>

18

<p>^ Sure it does. It has to do with the COST of education and ROI. So yes, it very much does have to do with education from certain “premium” institutions, and that perception of value.</p>

<p>No, I don’t know ‘annasdad’</p>

<p>@absweetmarie - I’m sure the further you get away from graduation, the less meaningful that “pipeline” statement is. (i.e. your Davidson grad). And there are always exceptions to the rule, these are BIG schools we’re talking about. But by and large, I think it makes sense to presume your 1st and early opportunities are going to come from where your school is most recognized and connected.</p>

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<p>Exactly. There’s a thread about LACs that is touching on some of these themes.</p>

20

<p>^Fair enough, giterdone (your post #18).</p>

<p>But back to this from your original post:</p>

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<p>Is this doable for you? Because if it is, why not do it? The perception of value seems to mean something to you. And it can be argued (certainly people like to argue the point ;)) that it matters to other people, including some people making hiring decisions. But if it’s not doable, or not comfortably, then don’t do it. You know as well as everyone else on this thread (and on every other thread that addresses this same choice) that it needn’t mean the difference between success or fulfillment for your D.</p>