<p>Ok, so you agree that the school in question is an elite school, unlike the schools that most high school students have access to.</p>
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<p>Academic eliteness in a high school neither requires nor excludes having AP or IB.</p>
<p>However, non-elite high schools like what most high school students have access to would probably downgrade their offerings for advanced students if AP and IB were eliminated (as at least one poster has noted when AP CS AB was discontinued, the local high school discontinued the course and replaced it with the less rigorous AP CS A). Not a good state of affairs when the only thing inducing them to offer courses for advanced students is AP or IB.</p>
<p>That was me, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened all over the country. I’m not really sure what Xiggi is proposing would be better than AP or IB. The AP classes aren’t perfect, but I think most of them are reasonably solid. Don’t know much about IB, but the emphasis on writing sounds good. </p>
<p>I think it’s a mistake to say that AP/IB are holding educators back. Schools are certainly free to offer other advanced classes as they see fit, but the fact is that most don’t. At our high school, the APs are the majority of the advanced classes offered. We also have a similar number of dual enrollment classes with our local cc. In most cases, you would take either the AP class or the comparable dual class. And there doesn’t seem to be that big a difference. A few of the dual classes are subjects for which there are no APs. What I don’t see is the high school staff developing their own courses at a comparable or more advanced level. The curriculum is coming from the college board or from the cc. We don’t have anything more advanced than AP/dual. Either the school doesn’t have the expertise or they think the students are not capable of handling anything more advanced. And I think that’s true of the vast majority of high schools. There are plenty of kids on cc like my daughter who breeze through a lot of APs in high school. But judging by the AP scores, there are an awful lot of AP students who are struggling greatly or failing miserably. (Also consider that Race to Nowhere documentary). I just don’t think there are enough students in most high schools who could handle classes more rigorous than APs. You’ll find them at fancy magnet schools where everyone is gifted and many of the teachers have PhD’s, but not in the schools that most of us have any access to.</p>
IB program(me)s vary from one school to the next.</p>
<p>I was always heavily into science, and IB was great for me. I did the Diploma (both Chem and Bio at HL) and took AP Physics C and AP Calc BC as well. I majored in a science in college and was more than prepared.</p>
<p>The SAT subject tests are (or at least were) fairly easy for someone with relevant IB coursework – I really don’t think it’s an issue. I took Math IIC, Chem, and Writing (yeah, it’s been a while) after my junior year and did well without any prep whatsoever. Most of my IB classmates fared equally well. </p>
<p>AP exams also tend to be pretty easy for someone taking the relevant IB class (either SL or HL). If a school system pays for IB/AP exams (as mine did), taking the relevant AP exam is a good way to get credit at colleges that don’t give good credit for IB scores. The exceptions are IB Physics, which doesn’t use calculus and is therefore weaker than its AP counterpart, and IB History, which lines up well with APUSH but poorly with AP European History.</p>
<p>“I would add that it’s certainly possible to do well on an SAT Subject test even without formal high school instruction on the tested topic.”</p>
<p>Well of course it is. Check out all the posts on here by kids self-studying for AP tests.</p>
<p>“A couple years ago, I worked with a bright, highly motivated freshman who hadn’t taken a bio class in high school yet. With some guidance in the selection of the appropriate study materials and a healthy dose of independent study, the student was able to score an “800” on the Biology Subject test. The kid ended up completing all of her standardized testing by the end of the sophomore year. Front-loading her standardized testing has freed up her junior year and will make the fall of her senior year a breeze.” </p>
<p>I don’t see the point of that at all. It’s the hardest way to approach these tests. If the student was planning to take bio in high school, why not just take the sat2 test at the end of the bio class? It would require far less prep, coming even at the end of a so-so single year class. And if the student wasn’t interested enough in bio to take it in high school, then why not choose sat2 tests in fields of more interest? What really makes this testing a breeze is to take them in may or june the year the student is in the AP class of that subject. The only prep my daughter did in this case was to take the one or two available released exams from the college board’s sat2 released exam book. Nothing could possibly have been “freed up” because no significant time commitment was needed or made.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I think many kids improve their skills during high school (let’s hope so) and so completing the SAT testing as a sophomore probably won’t get her the best scores she could have. Again, a very odd way to approach this. SAT testing in the fall of junior year after prepping during the summer seems like the earliest you’d want to do it.</p>
<p>Our D did IB in high school, full program, has the diploma. She loved it. She had plenty of time to pursue EC’s (most outside of school), etc.</p>
<p>The most important piece of information you need is how IB works at YOUR school. It varies, a lot. At D’s high school, IB and AP are meshed, TOK is a night, twice a week for the second semester Junior year and first semester Senior year. The teacher understands and works with other commitments. The IB teachers are excellent, and balance homework/tests/etc, especially during AP testing. The program is excellent with well over 95% of the students earning the diploma. </p>
<p>Go ask questions at your high school, talk to other parents (both IB and not IB) and then you can make a decision. I will say, IB is essay intense. So you need to factor that in…</p>
<p>It may be that the ideal would be for a school system to develop its own curriculum for advanced students. But that doesn’t happen many places, and so the more likely option is to adopt a canned program. Right now, the main choices are AP and IB. One advantage of AP is that it can be done piecemeal, so even a smaller school system can have at least some AP courses.</p>
<p>I think the most important question is to find out where the best teachers are. In my kids’ school, there was no question that (most of) the best teachers were teaching IB courses. The IB program was a magnet, and attracted strong teachers and strong students. There was also a math/science magnet in the county, which is part of the reason the IB program was not so great for STEM kids. By the time my kids were in the program, it had been a successful IB program for many years, and many of the teachers had been involved for a long time as well. If the IB program you’re looking at is new, it could be a very different story.</p>
<p>“I think the most important question is to find out where the best teachers are.” Yes, and also where the best students are. A good peer group can make a big difference.</p>
<p>Huh, I believe that teh above mimics exactly what I have been saying, with the caveat that the definition of eliteness remains in the eye of the beholder. </p>
<p>While it is easy to recognize the top privates and the super public schools, it is a bit harder to measure how elite schools are that operate on a shoestring budget. In that latter category, you might find schools that deserve the qualifier because of their gargantuan efforts to lift the boats of students who might have been rejected or ignored by the “system.” To be clear, I am making more a reference to the Cristo Rey model than to one of the toniest school in Manhattan that helps the wealthiest navigate their K-12 education. </p>
@mathyone:
The science teaching was notoriously atrocious at the student’s school. The Bio/AP Bio teacher was the worst of the bunch. For this reason, the student felt justified preparing on her own for the Bio Subject test in her freshman year…and then taking a more advanced biology class at a nearby college. We live in an area where there are several colleges in close proximity.</p>
<p>It’s been my experience that students who prepare for the Subject tests…perform better than if they had not prepared. (If you understand how these tests are constructed, it’s not a surprising observation at all.) It’s one thing to take the tests cold (no prep)…and score approx. 700 – it’s quite another to earn a perfect score. It usually takes a little bit of work to get there. (Not that it’s necessary to score an 800 on every Subject test in order to gain admission to the top-tier universities.)</p>
<p>For a number of students, the junior year is jam-packed with AP/IB classes, varsity sports, traveling “club” teams (very popular in my area), and other extracurricular activities. It makes perfect sense to “max out” as many of the standardized tests prior to hitting the junior year – if the student is willing and capable.
Perhaps you have had more experience in this matter than I.</p>
<p>Over the years, I’ve only worked with approx. 20 students who have demonstrated interest in taking the SAT/ACT prior to the junior year and were willing to work on test prep early on. These same students possessed the standardized test-taking ability that made posting a strong score (2300+ on the SAT or higher than a 34 on the ACT) a reasonable goal. FYI, all of the students I’m referring to posted frosh/soph PSAT scores higher than 195 (with no prior preparation). Several of the students had already taken the SAT in the 7th grade in order to qualify for the Johns Hopkins CTY program. Needless to say, these students were/are not typical high school kids. Of the students mentioned above, I only had one student who did not finish in the aforementioned desired scoring range. That student took the ACT as a junior and achieved his score goal. All earned (or will eventually earn) the National Merit Scholar Semifinalist/Finalist designation (based on the junior PSAT score).</p>
<p>It’s certainly possible that the students might have performed slightly better on the SAT/ACT as juniors or seniors…but, to be honest, I don’t think it would have made a difference in college admissions. The ones who took the SAT ended up scoring in the 2340-2400 range. For bright, hard-working students who have taken the most challenging curriculum offered by the high school, earned straight A’s, and “maxed out” on standardized tests, the honors/awards and extracurricular activity components of the application are the determining factors in being accepted/rejected at top-tier universities. At least that’s what I’ve seen…
This is entirely inconsistent with what I’ve observed in the IB students in my area. Kids learn to become efficient with their time, start “project” assignments early, etc. The IB curriculum has more hoops to jump through than the counterpart AP curriculum. From what I’ve seen, IB students, on the whole, get better training in writing research/analysis papers than AP students.</p>
<p>OK, prepping for some purpose, like to learn the material in order to take a college class, is reasonable. My objection was to the idea of prepping for these exams without supporting coursework for the sole reason of finishing the exams before junior year.</p>
<p>“It’s been my experience that students who prepare for the Subject tests…perform better than if they had not prepared. (If you understand how these tests are constructed, it’s not a surprising observation at all.) It’s one thing to take the tests cold (no prep)…and score approx. 700 – it’s quite another to earn a perfect score. It usually takes a little bit of work to get there.”</p>
<p>OK, I’ll add to your experience. A few days before test date, my daughter completed the practice test or two in the college board’s book of released SAT2 tests, looked up the answers for anything she didn’t know, then walked in and took the tests. If you had a good AP prep, you don’t need anything more. For math, she spent about 10-12 hours prepping. That one she took as a sophomore. 800s all around.</p>
<p>Regarding the SAT1’s, there are many people on here saying they saw big jumps in their PSAT scores from sophomore to junior year, even those who didn’t study the second time around. </p>
<p>Furthermore, the kind of kids you are working with are presumably hoping to become NMSF. So, they need to be well-prepped for that exam in the fall of their junior year. If they prep for these tests as freshmen or sophomores, are they still at the top of their game by october of junior year, or are they going to have to do some prep anyhow? In my opinion, it makes the most sense for such students to do most of their prep the summer before junior year, then take the SAT in october or december, soon after the PSAT while their skills are still fresh. Done.</p>
All of the kids I referred to in my previous post achieved (or will achieve) NMS Semifinalist/Finalist status – despite residing in CA, a state with a fairly high NMSQT cut-off (221-223 in recent years). Most scored over 230 on the junior year PSAT…with little more than some self-study SAT/PSAT warm-up a week prior. A couple of the students did score one or two points lower on the junior PSAT…but still high enough to surpass the cut-off with a nice cushion. What can I say? They’re great at taking those tests.</p>
<p>FWIW, several of the students scored over 230 on their sophomore PSATs.</p>
<p>As you know, for college admission at the top-tier universities, NMS Semifinalist/Finalist designation really isn’t that big of a deal. However, it can open up merit aid possibilities.</p>
<p>I encounter many parents and students who are overwhelmed by the flurry of college-related prep in the junior year. It doesn’t have to be that way. Certain students can successfully take the SAT/ACT and Subject tests as freshmen and sophomores. To be honest, I used to feel the same way as you about the process (at the earliest, prep for the SAT/ACT for taking it in the fall of junior year)…until I actually worked with these students. They like to be challenged. We have a lot of fun during the prep process. <em>shrug</em></p>
<p>Well, as I am trying to point out, there doesn’t have to be a flurry of exam prep junior year. Students like the ones you work with, like my daughter, who are getting nearly perfect SAT scores will usually have completed several AP classes by the end of junior year, and with very minimal prep can take the SAT2’s. Students who are shooting for NMSF have to be prepped in the fall of their junior year making this the logical time to take SAT1’s. My daughter spent significant time over the summer prepping and very little time during junior year. She threw in an extra SAT2 she didn’t need just for the heck of it–is that the action of someone who is overwhelmed by a flurry of test prep? What I would advise is to do the math sat2 before junior year, just because the curriculum isn’t really supporting what’s on the test any more. I guess this is also true of sat1 math but I think most students continue to improve verbal skills in high school. </p>
<p>“FWIW, several of the students scored over 230 on their sophomore PSATs.” OK, but they needed to keep up their skills as juniors. As I’m sure you know, in the high cut-off states, you can only afford to miss about 5-6 questions. If you scored around 230, you missed about 3. Would you feel comfortable dropping the books and walking in cold a year later to try to match the score you got when you were prepped, assuming that you won’t miss more than 2 more being out of practice? I wouldn’t, and I didn’t let my daughter do that.</p>
<p>Getting back to the IB, my take on these tests is that you can do pretty well with minimal prep after a good single year class. If you want to get an 800, you would probably have to put some time into it. But as others have pointed out, these tests are meant to be accessible to kids who have had a single year of the subject. And they are. One of my daughter’s friends took a last-minute SAT2 freshman year after honors bio with no prep and scored in the mid-700s. If you are wanting 800’s after just the one class, I think you would need to do some test prep, though I don’t think it’s that overwhelming. If you can manage to take them at the end of a good AP class, they are no big deal, and I think it would be crazy to take them long before completing the AP class if you could reasonably schedule them at that time. That AP class is like a whole year of test prep beyond the level the test was written for. Just making more work for potentially lesser score to do SAT2 first.</p>
Not necessarily. For the right kind of student, I think front-loading standardized tests, i.e., taking them in the freshman and sophomore years, is actually desirable. Junior year brings with it higher level coursework (particularly if the student is taking classes at a local college), athletic recruitment, and deeper involvement in other extracurricular activities. Many of the “early” kids with whom I worked had a ridiculous number of activities/camps/showcases/jobs/lab internships over the summer between the sophomore and junior years. They wanted to be done with things prior to that summer. It worked out better for them to complete standardized testing early.
In my experience, kids who score over 230 in their sophomore year can very easily replicate that score on the junior year PSAT. I’m very comfortable letting students know how much review is advisable prior to the junior year PSAT. For kids scoring high on the sophomore year PSAT, minimal prep is necessary. These kids are confident. They are great test-takers. They’ve already demonstrated that they’ve mastered the SAT/ACT, which is a much longer test. To be honest, they all thought the PSAT was easy. All of them wanted to attend top-tier colleges where only need-based aid was offered…so the NMS Semifinalist/Finalist designation for them wasn’t that important.</p>
<p>The advice I give parents and students is to take the Subject tests when they feel best prepared to take them, which often times is at the end of the corresponding AP class…but not always. As you mentioned, there isn’t always the best overlap between an AP test and its corresponding Subject test.</p>
<p>Students require different amounts of prep to achieve their score targets for the Subject tests. If a student is targeting an 800, then it would be advisable to take one College Board practice test at the very least just to get an idea of the structure of the test and the breadth of material tested.</p>
<p>@Marian, sure. Mostly I am arguing here against the idea that it’s a good plan for students to teach themselves a whole year of a class they are planning to take anyhow, for the sole purpose of finishing the SAT2’s before they’ve taken the relevant classes. That time could be much better spent. A good class should get them at least 95% of the way and even a class that isn’t so good or not well aligned should get them maybe 80%. Why start prepping at 0%?</p>
<p>@Bartleby, I don’t doubt that a talented and motivated kid can do very well on the SAT in freshman or sophomore year. But SAT1 is a test of general skills, and no matter when you take it, you’d be well-advised to prep. But you are talking about also self-studying entire years of high school coursework. This is simply not efficient when those tests require virtually no study if you just take them when you’ve had the coursework. It’s hours and hours of slogging through material you’ve never studied vs. breezing in. It’s interesting that the SAT tests are the only tests people say to take and then study for them after. Now, you are meant to take the test before you take the class too?</p>
<p>A few of my personal IB observations for what they’re worth as clearly there is tremendous variability among IB schools:</p>
<p>Most colleges that require applicants to submit SAT subject test scores will accept the ACT with writing instead. This means that for college placement purposes or prerequisite waivers for freshmen, the AP or IB test scores are sufficient and subject tests not necessary.</p>
<p>As far as the value of the IB diploma is concerned vs AP classes: the IB diploma program truly instills the study, organization, work ethic, writing, research, presentation, project and time management skills required for success in college. Five of my kids took multiple APs (4-9 total) at a school that had no IB option. They were good memorisers and test takers and got 4s and 5s. But they didn’t head to college with those broader IB skills and learned the hard way that there’s more to success than just acing the test.</p>
<p>My last two kids are in an IB program, one a senior. While I can’t say that there is greater or less rigor in their IB classes than their siblings’ experiences in AP classes (different school), they definitely have MORE to juggle, especially balanced with all the service and extracurriculars necessary for the IB diploma. </p>
<p>Admissions reps at the selective private colleges my daughter was considering this year advised that taking the most academically challenging course load available at her school was very important. Electing not to go for the full diploma, when it is an option at her school, in her case would have made her a lesser candidate. She’s glad she did and was admitted ED to her dream school.</p>
<p>It is possible at most IB schools to take just a few IB courses, however, without going for the full diploma, much like taking select AP classes. </p>
<p>A few of my AP kids were happy to have been granted sophomore status entering the UCs as freshmen due to the number of their AP credits. I’m not sure if taking the comparable number IB classes would have afforded the same benefit or whether the full diploma is necessary. </p>
<p>It seems to me that my daughter’s HL IB courses were comparable or more challenging than the equivalent AP classes, and her SL IB classes perhaps a bit less challenging than the equivalent AP. Not sure if this is just a reflection of her school or the program in general.</p>
<p>However, subject credit is determined by the campus and department, and is often a lot less generous than credit units. For example, physics majors at Berkeley cannot skip any physics courses with any AP or IB test scores.</p>
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<p>Since SL means “standard level”, that means that such courses cover material that is presumably up to standard high school senior level material (though probably in a more rigorous fashion than typical non-AP/IB/honors courses at non-elite US high schools cover it), and less advanced than HL or “higher level” courses which presumably go beyond that (e.g. math SL covers through precalculus with a brief introduction of calculus, while math HL covers what is ordinarily college frosh level calculus).</p>
<p>AP courses were originally intended to offer advanced high school students college frosh level material (calculus BC is the most obvious example), but AP has had mission creep in defining newer AP courses that are rather less rigorous to the point that some high schools routinely offer them to frosh or sophomores (e.g. human geography). Many AP courses are less rigorous than the college courses that they emulate, because they typically take a year to cover what a college course typically covers in a semester (psychology, calculus AB, statistics, etc.).</p>
<p>Such courses may not provide students with the experience of taking a college course at a college pace, but they do provide them with the knowledge they would have gained from taking the college course. For example, students who have gotten a 4 or 5 on the AB calculus test are adequately prepared for most colleges’ second-semester calculus courses, just like students who took the college’s first-semester calculus course.</p>
<p>Another point about AP (and this is purely anecdotal). My kid #1 was taking “U.S. History From the Civil War to Today” at our flagship state university during the same semester when my kid #2 was taking the second half of AP U.S. History in high school. Both courses covered approximately the same material. I had the opportunity to examine some of the course materials, assignments, and examination questions for both kids’ courses. The AP course was more rigorous than the college course. No question about it.</p>