<p>Alexandre,
You were almost right about the size of Stern's UG class. According to the NYU fact book, Stern admitted 534 freshmen in 2004 and has 2,314 in its undergrad program.</p>
<p>The initial figure I posted was inaccurate and I apologize for that (it really used be around that when I graduated few years ago). Last year, NYU overadmitted people (all the schools, not just Stern)...500 frosh didn't have housing at the beginning of year due to this overadmitting. Also keep in mind, that the 2314 figures includes transfers from other schools, and internal transfers from NYU's gsp program or other schools who decided to change course of study. </p>
<p>However, while my initial number may have been accurate, my point about Alexander characterizing NYU's b school as "huge" as being wrong...remains the same. NYU is not huge in relation to UMich. Furthermore, UMich has a bigger overall undergrad population than NYU (according to both school's web sites).</p>
<p>Stern's undergrad total of 2,314 works out to about 578 per class. 3rd & 4th years should be slightly larger due to transfers...so Alexandre's estimate was not that far off. Stern's graduating class is about 67% larger than Ross. Thus mathematically there should be 67% more Stern alums working on wall street. I believe this was what Alexandre tried to point out in his post. (engineers prefer numbers and %, while HR people like to use descriptive terms like "huge")</p>
<p>NYU is "huge" for a private institution, with 20,212 undergrad and 39,408 total enrollment. In comparison, Michigan's undergrad population is only 21% larger (24,500) and the total enrollment is about the same (39,533). Coincidentally, Michigan also had a record year in enrollment. They really had to scramble to house the extra 500 freshmen. I suppose it will be tougher to get into NYU and Michigan this year.</p>
<p>"Thus mathematically there should be 67% more Stern alums working on wall street."</p>
<p>Well not exactly GoBlue. Your assertion would only be true if the same proportion of students from each school pursue wall st. careers and nobody from NYU's and UMich's other schools pursues such. However, this is clearly not true, finance/banking is the most popular choice for liberal arts majors at NYU (I was a philosophy major and became an I-banker after college). I'm not sure if this is also true for UMich, but in any case, at both schools, its not only the b-school students who end up working on wall st. When you consider this, and the fact that NYU's total undergrad is not as large as UMich's, the fact that NYU has more alums on wall st. is not due to sheer size, but due to other factors like NYU's location....that was my point. </p>
<p>FYI, NYU's undergrad count for traditional bacculaurate programs is 16,000 something.</p>
<p>The 20,000 figure includes school of continuing ed (usually they take classes at a completely different campus from Washington Square where the undergrad is), and NYU's study abroad enrollment of people taking a semester to do a NYU program, but don't go to NYU. </p>
<p>Yes, while UMich's b school may be smaller than Stern, NYU has a better student faculty ratio (1/12 vs. 1/15), and generally has smaller classes (this is from Pton Review's website) Regardless, I agree NYU is huge for a private school (that was never an issue), but the original post that spurred my response seemed to imply that NYU was huge compared to UMich, and that clearly isn't true. I also think we can both agree that size should not be a factor when deciding between NYU and UMich as both are fairly large schools in terms of overall undergrad enrollment...anyway you cut it.</p>
<p>My post should read "mathematically there should be AT LEAST 67% more Stern alum working on wall street". That is, mathematically, b-school size alone can account for 67% more.</p>
<p>Not all Michigan grads working on finance/banking are business majors. I know a few econ/math and even engineering students in I-banking on route to MBA. In fact, there is an ongoing debate whether one should pursuit a BBA before going for an MBA. I do agree with you that NYU's proximity to wall street draws many students with finance/banking career objective in mind.</p>
<p>"NYU has a better student faculty ratio (1/12 vs. 1/15), and generally has smaller classes". Not for b-school. In Michigan, b-school starts in the junior year. Admission is very competitive (50% admitted). The faculty and facilities are first rate...and it's gonna get even better. You might have heard that the Ross b-school has a fresh $100M in the coffers thanks to Mr. Ross of NYC. At least half of that will go for new facilities and curriculum improvement.</p>
<p>"the original post that spurred my response seemed to imply that NYU was huge compared to UMich, and that clearly isn't true". I believe Alexandre was only referring to the size of Stern as compare to Ross, not the overall size of the school. ("That's because its Business School is huge and it is located in downtown NY"-Alexandre). And your point that NYU's location gives its an advantage on wall street is well taken.</p>
<p>"NYU's undergrad count for traditional bacculaurate programs is 16,000 something." I stand corrected. Even engineers miss reading the footnote occasionally. Frankly I didn't realize NYU is so large until I looked it up. Just curious, how many of the 35,000 students are at the Washington Sqare campus? and do they all live around campus?</p>
<p>Goblue, my response about b-school size came from the overall context of the conversation (comparing number of NYU alums on wall st. to Harvard and Wharton). Anyway, I think we can both reasonably agree that size should not be the prime consideration when deciding between NYU and UMich.</p>
<p>If you have any links comparing student/faculty ratios of the b-schoos specifically, it would be great to see it...in my opinion, NYU was pretty good with small classes for such a large school. I only very recently heard about the 100M gift you speak of (on this board I think), but thats very impressive indeed, and it should go a long way. However, you can rest assured other schools are not going to sit idle, in fact NYU fundraising is normally off the charts.</p>
<p>In additon to Greenwich Village, NYU has facilities in midtown and downtown Manhattan, these locations are primiarly for the school of continuing ed, but they aren't campuses per se since they really cater to a different type of student than the traditional undergrad (contining ed. students are normally older, working, etc.) As far as students around Wash Sq. almost all NYU freshman live in dorms. Some upper classmen move off campus into private apts. but even the vast majority of them live in dorms (good housing in Manhattan is astronomically expensive, its makes room and board of even a pricey college like NYU look like a bargain). I know many grad students live in the NYU owned Washington Sq. Village (a huge complex of apartments near the park). I would also assume many more grad students than undergrads live in off campus apartments since this this is an older group (more likely to be married, have a job, less inclined to party hard, etc).</p>
<p>Popularity among HS kids does not equal quality.</p>
<p>GOTO stern!! People who come to Michigan for business are not very smart. For stern, u get into it and u start on track immediately after enrollment. for Michigan, u will be taking useless classes like sociology or organizational studies and stuff like that for like 2 years before u can actually do what u want to do. But, this is assuming u would get into Umich business school in the first place. the uncertainty produces more problems.</p>
<p>"Popularity among HS kids does not equal quality."</p>
<p>Elaborate on exactly what you mean by this.</p>
<p>Michigan any day of the week.</p>
<p>I'd beg to differ Haithman....there is no guarantee he'll even go to UMich's b-school since he'll have to wait until junior year to find out--NYU Stern on the other hand, is a sure thing.</p>
<p>haithman is a huge tool</p>
<p>JWblue, Michigan will allow Freshmen to apply to the Bschool this year. And in the fall, HS students will be able to apply directly to the B school. This is part of an attempt to boost applications and yield rates to the business school. I am interested in seeing the results.</p>
<p>All very interesting. . .still don't see why Indiana isn't the right choice here for undergraduate study.</p>
<p>MBA. . .that may be a different matter.</p>
<p>Interesting Alexandre. I've always heard differently. Here is what Mich. says about it:</p>
<p>"Q: Can I apply directly from high school or as a freshman?</p>
<p>A: No. We do not admit high school students or freshmen to the BBA program. However, students who have achieved sophomore status in their freshman year are eligible to apply. Generally, students apply during their sophomore year and enter the program their junior year. Entering students must have completed at least 55 transferable credit hours."</p>
<p>Even assuming what you say is correct, it still remains to be seen whether in terms of selectivity, UMich's b-school can produce a class like NYU (Stern), Penn (Wharton) or Berkeley (Haas).</p>
<p>Reidm-read post #12.</p>
<p>JW, in terms of selectivity, Michigan's Business school is already as selective as Cal and Stern. Only 50% of Michigan students who apply to the Business school get in. The question is, will it become as selective as Wharton? Of the undergraduate Business programs, only Michigan and MIT have the quality to rival Wharton, although I doubt either will ever match Wharton.</p>
<p>Reidm, I agree that Indiana must be given serious consideration. Saving $100,000 is no laughing matter.. If his family is middle-income and going to Stern or Ross will put him in serious debt, it is not worth it. But if his family can afford Ross or Stern, and if he wishes to work for a company like Microsoft, Cisco, Amgen, Pfizer, JP Morgan etc... upon graduation, he would be best served by going to Ross or Stern.</p>
<p>Alexandre--how can you possibly talk about the b-school's selectivity when you know nothing of the SAT scores/HS gpas of those in it? Look, you only know that 50% of already existing UMich students get in (without having a clue as to their HS grades/test scores)....its like comparing apples and oranges, so I don't think you can make the absolute statement that Ross is as selective as Stern or Haas. </p>
<p>Overall, both NYU and Cal have lower acceptance rates than UMich....so its not crazy to assume the respective b-schools are more selective as well. Also, I don't think anyone is mentioning Ross in the same breath as Wharton....the only undergrad b-schools that come close are Stern and Sloan.</p>
<p>JW, Stern is a good B school, but it is not considered a top Business school. Its undergraduate program is ranked in the top 10 because Harvard, Stanford, Kellogg, Chicago, Columbia and Dartmouth do not have undergraduate programs in Business. At the graduate level, none of the respected MBA rankings have NYU in the top 10. On the other hand, Michigan's rankings have fluctuated between #2 (BusinessWeek 1996) and #10 (USWR 2004). In general, Michigan is considered one of the top 8 Business programs in the nation...and that's when you include Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Kellogg and company. At the undergraduate level, Michigan is considered one of the top 3, along with Wharton and Sloan. </p>
<p>As far as undergraduate selectivity, I only have this to offer you:</p>
<p>NYU Freshmen class:
Mean SAT: 1310
Mean GPA: 3.60
% graduating in top 10% of class: 65</p>
<p>Michigan Freshmen class:
Mean SAT 1310
Mean GPA: 3.75
% graduating in top 10% of class: 90%</p>
<p>I would say that Michigan is every bit as selective as NYU. Now students who go to Michigan with the intent of majoring in Business know that they will have to apply to the Business school and that their chances of getting into the B school aren't good. So most students who enroll into Michigan with the intent of studying Business are usually better than the average Michigan student. Personally, I think university grades are a more telling sign of potential success than High school grades. The mid 50% GPA range of the students who get into the Business school is 3.4-3.8. Do you know how hard it is to get a 3.5+ GPA at Michigan? Like I said, Ross is as selective as Stern and Haas.</p>
<p>Alexandre,</p>
<p>You seem to love mixing disparate things, whether it be hs and college gpas, and now undergrad and grad b-schools...again, its like comparing apples and oranges. The issue here, in this thread, has ALWAYS been undergrad b-schools, not MBA programs (so that businessweek ranking you cited is not relevant). From someone, whose worked at an investment bank and currently works at a hedge fund., I can tell you for a fact that as far as undergrad is concerned, Stern gets mentioned with Wharton far more than Ross.</p>