<p>BigREd, if you are certain you want to major in Business and your choice comes down to Ross and Stern, go with the style you prefer. The two programs are equal in most respects. So...you have a simple criterion to look at. NYU is located in the nicest part of NYC. Michigan is located in the heart of one of the nicest college towns in the US. Do you want to be in NYC or in a college town. Answer this and you have your decision.</p>
<p>i visited both schools and i liked both a lot. I would probably go to nyu if i got in there because its a) close to my house (i like about 45 min away in jersey) and b) i gain acceptance directly into the business program whereas there is no guarantee I will get into Ross after my soph year. That being said, I don't think i am getting into stern so i will probably end up at michigan anyway :)</p>
<p>Al: "If UCLA is ranked 51 spots ahead of Michigan and UCSC is ranked #25, then it is clear that it is a popularity contest"</p>
<p>Consus Group Methodology:
Published Rankings-50% (this includes US News and Gourman which I presume you believe guage academic quality at least somewhat).</p>
<p>Selectivity: 45%</p>
<p>Yield: 5%</p>
<p>available at:
<a href="http://www.consusgroup.com/news/rankings/colleges/methodology.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.consusgroup.com/news/rankings/colleges/methodology.asp</a></p>
<p>Al: "As for recruiters giving Michigan a top 15 ranking...that's pretty obvious by the sheer number of companies that recruit at Michigan."</p>
<p>Nice shift there. But your initial statement was: "corporate recruiters rate Michigan somewhere between #8 and #17 as an undergraduate institution"</p>
<p>Basically, you were implying there was some published ranking on this (I'd still like to see it if you have one)...now you are saying your point should merely be inferred by the number of companies on campus..thats pretty weak.</p>
<p>"1,500 companies recruit at Michigan. That's more than Harvard, Yale, Cornell and Darmouth combined. "</p>
<p>More than 4 ivys combined? I would love to see your evidence of this.</p>
<p>Al: "And starting salaries for Michigan undergrads is only exceeded by Havard, Princeton, MIT, Stanford, Yale and CalTech."</p>
<p>This is not correct at all. I highly doubt the average UMich undergrad, even one from the b-school, has a higher starting salary than people from Penn (Wharton), NYU (Stern), and a plethora of tech/engineering schools (eg Carnegie Mellon). GA Tech has a higher starting salary than Princeton...you tell me which is viewed better by corporate recruiters? Again, I'd like to see your evidence. </p>
<p>Al: "And Michigan is ranked #9 according deans, research and academics. And no, the peer assessment is not "subjective"."</p>
<p>Thats one aspect of the US News ranking and by definition its an opinion based aspect no matter how you frame it. UMich's overall ranking is in the 20s...not 9. I also define "reality on the ground" as the opinion of students (measured by selectivity), not out of touch admins or deans who may vaguely know about the schools they are rating...thats reality in the ivory tower in my opinion.</p>
<p>i think it would be better if we all examined the rankings of mba's from MANY different sources. Check out the site below.
<a href="http://www.bschool.com/ussbys.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.bschool.com/ussbys.html</a></p>
<p>If anyone is out of touch with reality it is the HS kids of today that actually believe name recognition=great job for life. There are many numerical ways to measure quality. The Center at the University of Florida presents many facts on higher ed quality that are not disputable. UM ranks in the top10 overall. Only Harvard, MIT and Stanford has a higher overall ranking. NYU is several tiers lower.</p>
<p><a href="http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research_data.html%5B/url%5D">http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research_data.html</a></p>
<p>^good post barrons</p>
<p>Great Barrons...a ranking primarily based on funding/research...it even comes in the form of an excel spreadsheet. I doubt corporate recruiters are using this...neither you nor your understudy Alexandre have posted a ranking from such...and thats the issue here. Again, show me some evidence.</p>
<p>i thought the wall street journal compiles their ranking lists based on info from corporate recruiters don't they?</p>
<p>dunno if this link works, try it.</p>
<p>The WSJ is not talking about the undergrad...thats an MBA ranking. Consider the fact that that many top schools don't have undergrad b-school programs, so I doubt an undergrad ranking would be the mirror image of an MBA ranking.</p>
<p>u are correct that an undergrard ranking would not be the mirror image of an mba ranking. However if u remove all the schools without undergrad b-programs, i would assume the remaining list would somewhat represent an undergrad ranking. Also keep in mind, the ranking is based on the views of over 2000 recruiters, some whom also recruit at an undergraduate level. </p>
<p>btw, what was the initial argument in this topic i dont even remember. lol.</p>
<p>BigRed25,</p>
<p>There have been a ton of args here (thats what makes it fun...lol)., they range from NYU's selectivity vs. UMich's selectivity, to Consus Group Rankings, to US News peer assessment...the current issue is this:</p>
<p>Alexandre said:
1. "corporate recruiters rate Michigan somewhere between #8 and #17 as an undergraduate institution"</p>
<ol>
<li><p>"1,500 companies recruit at Michigan. That's more than Harvard, Yale, Cornell and Darmouth combined. "</p></li>
<li><p>"And starting salaries for Michigan undergrads is only exceeded by Havard, Princeton, MIT, Stanford, Yale and CalTech."</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I haven't seen any evidence to back this stuff up.</p>
<p>Even on the MBA level, Stern & Wharton have a higher starting salary than UMich.</p>
<p>true, stern and wharton have higher starting salaries, but this i think is due to the geographical location of nyc and philly. the cost of living in nyc is extremely high and salaries reflect this.
higher starting salary, but higher cost of living around the tristate area (nj, conn, ny)
after its all said and done, stern, wharton, and ross are three great schools that i certainly wouldnt mind going to.</p>
<p>You say all this, yet the student body at wharton and stern has virtually identical SAT/Gpa stats</p>
<p>Yes and a higher percentage of them stay in the area while a significant percentage of UM grads are in the Midwest where salaries and costs of living are lower.
BTW NYU reports an average salary base of $83,198 and UM $85,734.</p>
<p>"BTW NYU reports an average salary base of $83,198 and UM $85,734."</p>
<p>Thats BS. Here is what the schools say (latest info. from the websites):</p>
<p>NYU:
average base salary range: $50-165K
avg. base: $86,653
avg. signing bonus: $19,676</p>
<p>UMich:
average base salary range: $40-125K
avg. base: $85,734
avg. signing bonus: $16,466</p>
<p>Close, but NYU wins...and these stats still negate your point.</p>
<p>you have to remember that all those scores you guys were arguing about aren't representative of even LSA kids -- let alone people who are going to Ross.</p>
<p>Michigan has the nursing and kines program people apply directly as first years. They're good programs, but the kids in them don't have the stats that most of the engin or lsa people have. In short, they unfairly drag average scores down. In any case, these people aren't the ones getting into Ross.</p>
<p>Its the same reason people rip on Cornell -- for average scores that are in a large part due to their hotel and agriculture schools within the U.</p>
<p>Getting a 3.7 at Michigan (taking weeders like econ, calc, etc -- many graded to a c+ median) is MUCH harder than getting a 1500 on the sat. You may not feel Umich is a great school, but it still has many very qualified and bright kids and I think 3.79 is the top 3% here. It tells you something about the Ross applicants that they can keep this gpa (and class rank) while taking those classes, and competing against people in much less difficult majors (communications).</p>
<p>Think about it:
top 25% of entering freshman at umich have a 1420 or better...
only the top 3% at umich have a 3.79 or better</p>
<p>Next year people can apply to Ross out of HS. I think that will actually add a lot of apps for Umich's freshman class.</p>
<p>...and this is all from someone looking to transfer out of the U</p>
<p>JW, you just provided the methodology of the Consus group...and it makes no sense that UCSC is is ranked higher than Johns Hopkins, Chicago or Michigan. Those latter three have MUCH higher ranked departments accross the board, are all FAR more selective and have higher yields. The fact is, if it truly used the methodology you mention above, Chicago, Johns Hopkins and Michigan would be ranked in the top 15. Further more, Chicago and Johns Hopkins are slightly more selective than UCLA and Michigan is as selective as UCLA and all 4 are ranked pretty high in terms of academics. So, for UCLA to be ranked in the top 10 and the other three out of the top 30 makes no sense. Finally, Wisconsin-Madison is one of the nation 's top 25-30 universities. Like it or hate it, I couldn't care less. The facts speak for themselves. Illinois-Urbana Champaign is up there too. The fact that they are not ranked among the top 85, couple with ranking Johns Hopkins #31, Chicago #48, Michigan #61, UCSB #24 and UCSC #25 makes the Consus group complete excrement.</p>
<p>As for the source for the number of companies recruiting on campus, I got it from the only source that I know of that gives those numbers...Kaplan/Newsweek's College and Universities guide. You can find it in any major bookstore. According to Newsweek, 1,500 companies recruit at Michigan, compared to 600 at Harvard, 600 at Cornell, 150 at Yale and 100 at Dartmouth. NYU has 600 companies recruiting on campus too...as does MIT.</p>
<p>Starting salaries for Michigan undergrads (overall, not just Business majors) is indeed as high as Penn and Cornell graduates' starting salaries. The numbers for those three schools are very similar. </p>
<p>For Business majors, starting salaries for Ross graduates is $48,000. For Stern graduates, it is $50,000 and for Wharton graduates, it is also $50,000. However, 80% of Stern and Wharton grads end up on Wall Street/East Coast compared to 40% of Ross graduates. About 40% of Ross graduates end up working in the Midwest, which is considerable cheaper than the East Coast. If you take cost of living into consideration, I would say all three are pretty even. But NYU undergrads in non Business and non nursing fields earn significantly less than Michigan or Penn undergrads.</p>
<p>One more thing JW, you list the starting salaries for MBAs. In terms of total packages, including guaranteed bonuses and signing bonuses, Stern graduates start at $125,500 and Ross graduates start at $122,500. </p>
<p>However, when you take a closer look, over 75% of Stern MBAs accept jobs in the Northeast, compared with only 25% of Michigan MBAs. 50% of Michigan MBAs accept overs in the Midwest, South and Southwest, where the cost of living is significantly lower than the cost of living in the Northeast.</p>
<p>Al, if you have a problem with the results, take it up with the Consus Group and whoever does the rankings for them, but the methodology is there for you to see, and using this methodology, there is no way UMich can be top 15 with the 60%+ acceptance rate it has.</p>
<p>"For Business majors, starting salaries for Ross graduates is $48,000. For Stern graduates, it is $50,000 and for Wharton graduates, it is also $50,000."</p>
<p>This still negates what you were saying earlier about UMich having the highest salary of all but 5 schools.</p>
<p>"But NYU undergrads in non Business and non nursing fields earn significantly less than Michigan or Penn undergrads."</p>
<p>If you are talking about UMich engineers than yes. This is not so if you are comparing the liberal arts majors with each other. Stern averages $50K, and NYU overall is around $45, econ and comp sci, which are both non-business majors at NYU are similar to Stern. KA good portion of liberal arts majors at NYU end up doing finance and working in NY, as I'm sure is the case with Penn. I can see Penn liberal arts majors having similar salaries or slightly higher salarties than NYU grads, but not UMich ones...if you have evidence..cite it. </p>
<p>"Stern graduates start at $125,500 and Ross graduates start at $122,500."</p>
<p>Not really. The Stern average is the average for the entire class, as the link indicates. If you look at the website more closely, you'll see only 46% of UMich grads got that "other bonus"..which averaged about 20K. So when you consider this, the average Ross grad is not making $122,500....and nowhere on UMich's site does it indicate such.</p>