Is it almost all about grades and test scores? Out of the blue my daughter wants to investigate UPenn. I don’t think she has the grades or test scores, but she isn’t too far off, I would think.
I am trying to think of how she could improve her chances at this stage of the game… she did not do too many ECs, but it really was not her fault as she would sign up for them, but the school would cancel them. She is a junior. She wanted to play volleyball and did for many years, but she only grew to 5’ 1" tall and did not make the HS team. Other than that, she never played sports,
She thinks she has a 3.9 UW GPA… and for sure has a 4.59 weighted GPA. Top 5 - 8% of her class. She only took 1 SAT so far, and I think she got 1310. She takes her first ACT in 3 weeks.
I believe that the 1310 would almost assuredly knock her out of contention, but she still can take it a couple more times.
Having really high gpa and scores gets you into the group that is considered for admission at the top schools. From that group, schools are looking for interesting and talented students. A student’s gifts might be in athletics, music, writing, science and that student has to figure out how to get that through on the application. Why should they pick HER?
I don’t think it’s good to justify her not doing ECs with excuses and certainly don’t let her do that on the app. She simply didn’t do anything EC wise. For example, blaming a school for canceling ECs just shows she wasn’t resourceful enough to find something else to do. Same thing with volleyball and height. That’s not a positive.
She needs some interests/passion in something - what does she do besides homework? What is she interested in? Baking, building, anything? Because if all she is committed to is school work, then yes, she should have nearly perfect scores and grades because she has so much time to spend on them compared to others that are involved in a zillion things and still making top grades. Make sense? Not trying to be harsh, just have to look at it by realizing what others are bringing to the table as well. Apply broadly and don’t let her get lured into the idea of a dream school.
Your daughter has great stats but from what you post doesn’t have the “added value” that would get her admitted to an Ivy or Ivy equivalent. No harm in allowing her to apply to a super reach college just for the sake of trying, but it will be more realistic to target schools with at least a 20-25% admission rate.
But if she is open to attending a women’s college, that will expand options if her goal is to get into a college with very high academic standards. Bryn Mawr has cross-registration with U Penn-- see https://www.brynmawr.edu/academics/bi-co-tri-co-and-penn-0
Don’t discourage her, but try to help her focus on the reasons she is interested in U Penn as that can help find schools that are similar to U Penn but not as highly competitive for admissions.
Almost always it is necessary to be across the board strong to be considered at elite schools.
I would recommend looking through the accepted students threads for UPenn to have a better sense of the consistent elements that existed with admitted students.
It is so important to manage expectations. Wishing your daughter good luck!
What do you know about acceptances from your high school? It is very hard to gauge someone’s chances without knowing the high school context. I am looking at our high school’s history and I can tell pretty accurately someone’s chances. You have to check out your high school. See if she has a realistic shot. For example if your D was in our high school she would have no chance to get in as we had never any acceptances to Penn and for the few ivies that do accept kids from our school she would have to have a top 5 ranking (not percent). On the other hand the kids that do get in to those few ivies do not need national awards or phenomenal ECs. They do have to somehow distinguish themselves in the community, but nothing like you read in CC. The local context is very, very important. Do you have naviance? Does the school has a good counselor? In my experience before you even start talking about good applications and stats and essays and all that one should gauge their local context.
No it is not about grades and scores. They have to meet a benchmark. Top schools are assembling an interesting class and it is all about what you can bring to that mix. It is about what you can contribute.
Many kids who go to Ivy type schools do extracurriculars outside of school. She didn’t have something she was interested in doing, enough to find a way to do it despite the cancellations, or maybe there were obstacles. Sometimes parents aren’t around to drive students to conservatory prep, or art classes, or a dance studio etc. And many don’t live near public transportation. Some selective schools are trying to honor the experience of working after school as well. The expectation of activities outside of school can be unfair, economically.
That said, there are ways to pursue an interest without a parent driver or money available. Anything from a keen interest in origami or Rubik cube to butterfly collecting to teaching Zumba to older people to submitting writing to a teen magazine. I mean the possible list is endless. So maybe she DOES have some interests that she is just not recognizing as such.
The main thing is that she not get her hopes up and fix on one school or set of schools. Does she like the campus, the location, the size, the “vibe” at UPenn? As others have said, help her find other schools that might have those qualities.
Check out Colleges that Change Lives, a great resource.
No, it isn’t all about grades and test scores, but they certainly are a major factor. At the most selective schools, it is helpful to consider them akin to anteing up at a poker game. You’re showing you have what it takes to sit at the table. Whether that is enough to win admission is another thing, but you need scores high enough to be taken seriously. In many threads on CC people have disagreed as to what level of scores is needed, and whether scores higher than whatever level is considered “high enough” are better. There are plenty of kids every year with near perfect scores who are rejected from highly selective schools. High stats fall on the spectrum (depending on who you ask) somewhere between helpful and necessary but certainly are not sufficient to win admission.
At UPenn, the 25th-75th percentile SAT scores on each section were 690-790 and the ACT composite was 32-34, so to have a better chance of admission, you’d really want to have a higher score than 1310.
My son applied to three highly selective schools and was accepted to all three. He had near perfect/perfect standardized test scores and GPA. Still, plenty of kids with similar stats were rejected. The difference was that he had demonstrated passion, dedication and high level achievement in fields that were important to him and was able to express that in his application essays. He also received glowing letters of recommendation that confirmed and expended upon his essays.
She likes the proximity to home - 25 miles away… she likes that they have every single major / minor that she is considering. She likes the idea of an Ivy League… She also likes what her vestibular therapist told her: That the therapist ran out of money and Penn just picked up her entire tab after she told them she was leaving for lack of money.
She likes that she can attend other schools and not just Penn. She likes the location. And she said she would like to be the first Ivy League graduate in my or my wife’s family.
“She also likes what her vestibular therapist told her: That the therapist ran out of money and Penn just picked up her entire tab after she told them she was leaving for lack of money.”
Look at the average number that get in to comparable colleges each year from your daughter’s school. Can she honestly say she is in the top x in her class? Kids should know where they stand by junior year. If she is say top 10 and 5 get in then OK. If she is top 30 and 5 get in then think again.
Its definitely possible to get into UPenn however she needs to stand out somehow. It seems academics are strong but don’t stand out, nor does it seem that her EC’s will. She would obviously have to apply ED to help her chances and her ACT (or SAT) needs to get into that 32-35 range. That leaves the one thing that average excellent students do to get in. Write unique essays that an AO would like/appreciate. That starts with doing a little reading on how to write a college admissions essay. DD spent most of her time on reading these types of books over the summer since everything else was set in stone by then, her top choice was UChicago and she was accepted in the ED round. BTW she wrote 3 essays but there is a consensus among her classmates that one essay really stood out for its humor, uniqueness and message. Most likely the one that got her to the front of the line. Stats were 34C, 4.0UW. 9 AP’s.
I have seen mention here on CC that ED at Penn historically has provided an admissions boost. Look at the Penn admission threads for more information.
IF she can improve her standardized test score AND she visits and it’s her strong #1 choice AND you run the numbers and can afford the cost, ED might provide some advantage. That’s a lot of ifs and ands. She also may do better on the ACT. Have her do a practice test and compare the result with her SAT score. To be considered, she should strive for 32+ ACT or 1450+ SAT.
The good news is that there are many wonderful schools at varying degrees of competitiveness in your geographical region.
Well, she could also end up like my dauhter, who got our family’s the first and only rejection notice from an Ivy when she insisted on applying to Brown. (You can’t get rejected if you don’t apply). Years later when applying to grad schools, she was able to add a rejection from Princeton into the mix.
Nearby location is actually probably another ding against your daughter – colleges typically like geographic diversity (so a kid from Alaska might get a secone look) – and also are typically overwhelmed with home state applications --plus a higher likelihood of more legacy apps from instate – so it’s just that much harder to stand out.
But if she likes a location near home, then that’s another point in favor of Bryn Mawr.
To give you an idea. My kids’ school usually has 6 to 7 acceptances every year for UPenn. My daughter was accepted RD (not attending). Her numbers are ACT 34, 4.96 GPA. Top 2% of the class, she was a musician in three orchestras, she created 2 clubs: one outside the school and one in her school, 6 Honor Societies, 15 AP’s (all 5’s), three subjects awards, three SAT II with 800, UChicago Book Award, and legacy, (and few others that I would prefer not to mention bc are very particular). Definitely a lot. But the kids in her class that were accepted in ED were very good as well but did not have her profile; not even close. Conclusion: do ED.