Not an admin person but can share policy from a highly regarded high school that has been in this business a long time. The purpose of standardized tests is to show a school you can do the work, period, no extra points for score chasing. Once a student hits the average/above average mark for the schools s/he is applying to, s/he is done as the test scores will not be the reason for rejection. The school recommended taking both the SAT and ACT once to determine which test best suited the student and then one more time with the best-suited test to account for any vagaries in the first sitting. Many students, like our son, took both tests once only because the scores, though not perfect, were comfortably in the range where they would not be the reason for rejection. Sure, some kids (parents?) score chased, but the high school absolutely discouraged that. Once a student’s scores were in the ballpark, colleges would know the student could do the work and it was time to move on to other parts of the application.
^^^very good advice. a 1600 and a 1520 are essentially the same. No one is rejected because they got a 1520 and 3.9 instead of 4.0. They both have checked the box. The rest of it is being special. Our S (not accepted at Ivies but was at several other highly selective schools) was a stud in high school. He was “the kid”. Class President, Varsity sport captain, Home Coming King, Student Ambassador, Mentor, all the honor societies, blah blah blah. He was a transformational figure in a growing Charter School that now has a waiting list larger than its population. Literally started or changed things that will live on at the school. When the mayor came to campus to find out what was
to create such great results for the school he interviewed S. However, none of his activities were outside the normal. Not sure how these kids do more as he left for school at 6:45 am and generally got home at 8 pm. He is quite well rounded. I think they are looking for the more “pointy” student. One who is deeply passionate about one or two things and can “package” that in their application. Someone who can demonstrate why their passion is important and how they’ve changed their corner of the world and what a X education would do to continue that path. More about what they bring to the community then benefiting from the community.
Looking back, S’s theme should have been leadership and creating positive change. Still probably would have fallen short (based on statistics), but being quite objective, his stellar high school performance looked quite average when compared to thousands of other stellar kids.
The good news is he was accepted at several great schools, had great choices, and is very happy at his choice. Lots of great schools out there.
@ChoatieMom if you need merit aid to make a school financially feasible and your SAT scores aren’t quite there, it can make sense to chase an extra 10 or 20 points on the superscore so that you reach a cutoff.
at Yale’s Info session, they advise not taking the SAT more than twice. Scores are not likely to change substantially if taken > 2 times, and you look desperate. No one likes students who chase scores thinking that’s all you need to get into a school like Yale, so to speak. Yale wants you to know its a holistic review, and standardized scores are only a very small piece. Lots of elite schools also adhere to this viewpoint.
More and more schools are backing down from the SAT/ACT altogether thinking that rich kids have the means to hire tutors to prepare for the test, while disadvantaged low SES kids cannot. A test that was once thought of as leveling the playing field is now thought to disadvantage those low SES kids.
When one of my kids was applying to Tufts, the admissions counselor advised families that 90% of the kids who applied had the stats and grades to succeed there. Nevertheless, the admissions rate was 21% (in his year; not sure what it is now). For top schools, pretty much EVERYONE has the ability to do well at the school. It’s the back story that gets kids in.
I’ll put in my usual caveat that one can have a near-perfect SAT score, 800s on SAT IIs, all 5s on APs, great grades in many post-AP courses and have multiple national science awards of the sort frequently mentioned on these threads and still not get into an Ivy. He did get into two schools with <10% acceptance rates, which were higher on his list anyway.
Both my kids got into the schools that really fit them, and I think admissions offices have a pretty good sense of what kind of person will thrive at their school. We were not surprised at any of the rejections they received, and only a little surprised at one wait list.
"I am trying to think of how she could improve her chances at this stage of the game… she did not do too many ECs,
She thinks she has a 3.9 UW GPA… and for sure has a 4.59 weighted GPA. Top 5 - 8% of her class. She only took 1 SAT so far, and I think she got 1310. She takes her first ACT in 3 weeks."
Penn students are almost all in the top 10% of their class with high rigor. She need to improve her test scores, but Penn is a bit more flexible on test scores than other top 10 schools.
I think it is critical to have a cohesive story. What are her interests? What has she done to demonstrate those interests both in and out of the classroom? How can Penn help her continue to pursue her interests? Remember that even things the student does at home or with their friends matter too. It does not need to be done as part of a club to be an EC.
OP, before your D sets her heart on Penn, maybe this article on managing expectations would be helpful for both of you to read. I’m not saying it would be impossible for her to get in, but I strongly encourage both of you to have a realistic understanding about the competitive nature of admissions to top schools. For the record, my two older children went to top 10 colleges. ECs were a huge part of the reason why both of them were accepted (in addition to very strong test scores, etc.).
https://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/pulse/help-students-manage-expectations-rebecca-stuart-orlowski/
I think it’s natural that many kids really focus on wanting school X for whatever reason they may have. My son did. What I was able to do, and it may be too late for this, was to really focus on getting him to love his list - reach, match, and safety. If you love your list, there is very little downside (and quite a bit of upside) as decisions come out.
@AbsDad, you mentioned the therapist; has she overcome some sort of adversity? You don’t need to detail it here, but if that is the case, it may make for an interesting/inspirational essay.
On the little information we have, it sounds like Penn might be a long shot, but perhaps she would like to try? I’d have her prep seriously for the SAT or ACT and maximize that score. She should take an SAT subject test or two (whatever is required), again, prepping hard for it. Work on her writing, making sure she is ready to write a strong essay. Find out the topics as soon as they are released, and work on that over the summer. Make sure she has a rigorous senior schedule planned. Be thoughtful about her activities for the coming summer; whether she works, or participates in something academic, or does volunteer work, it shouldn’t be a summer of lounging.
She should absolutely have a college backup plan that would make her happy as well. 
“Once a student hits the average/above average mark for the schools s/he is applying to, s/he is done as the test scores will not be the reason for rejection.”
Depends on the school. Some schools are more into high test scores than others.
I’d agree that HYPS are not all that impressed by the incrementally higher test score. Which shows in their data (see below). Many other schools post the same or higher scores than HYPS.
You can usually glean how much a school values high scores by looking at their policies around submitting test scores. Georgetown, for example, doesn’t super-score and requires all tests to be submitted. ND and Vandy only require one submission and superscore. Pretty clear that ND and Vandy dig the high scores more than Gtown.
Penn super-scores. In 2016, Penn changed its policy from “requiring” all tests to be submitted to “encouraging.” Draw your own conclusion on what that means.
For comparison, here’s some ACT ranges from last year’s cycle (enrolled students):
Stanford 31-35
Princeton 32-35
Columbia 33-35
Penn 32-35
Duke 31-34
Dartmouth 30-34
NW 32-34
Vandy 32-35
ND 32-35
WUSTL 32-34
Gtown 31-34
As others have said, ECs are really up to the student. D participated in several ECs at school, but also one major one outside of school. At the time D was interested in medicine and psych, so she randomly reached out via email to several psych profs at the state flagship U. A few actually responded (much to our surprise) and she ended up acting as a free intern to one, working on an ongoing well-known research project for a year. She also did a couple stints as a summer volunteer at a local hospital.
So really blaming the school is just a cop-out. Have your student take some initiative, figure out what she’s interested in, and pursue something related to it outside of school.
And one final thought, not meant in a sarcastic or judgemental way - taking initiative on these types of ECs outside of school isn’t something every kid is interested in doing, or wants to do. No harm, no foul if they don’t want to. But it might be an indicator for that particular kid, combined with less-than-truly-stellar grades/scores, that getting into a super-selective school isn’t in the cards for them. Personally, I truly believe that HPYS-type schools aren’t the be-all, end-all. Much more important is finding an environment where your child will thrive and be happy.
Agree with @sbjdorlo. I would encourage her to apply, but to think if her applications holistically, and avoid falling in love with one school.
@anomander “taking initiative on these types of ECs outside of school isn’t something every kid is interested in doing, or wants to do.”
Certainly, every kid isn’t interested. However, there are many students that would if they understood how college admissions works. Competitive college admissions is a process that most parents and students do not understand, and what you don’t know can hurt you.
You don’t want to push a kid to something they’re not interested in for college admissions, that’s exactly why the process is so stressful for the selective schools. You don’t enjoy high school at all.
“EC” doesn’t mean “school club”. It means extra-curricular.
I considered my kids’ part time jobs as ECs, Reading is an EC. Kite flying is an EC if you love it and do it often, build your own kites, whatever.
^^ Too many kids don’t understand that. I had to convince a girl that watching YouTube videos so she could do her own home and car repairs should be a featured EC on her application. (She’s applying to engineering programs with a dream of working for a car company some day.) She saw it as something she just did for fun and didn’t think she could list it since it wasn’t part of a school club.
Colleges love seeing students who have a signifcant engagement in activities outside the school – that is often much more valuable than participation in school sports or clubs, because it demonstrates initiative as well as genuine commitment. It’s one thing to sign up for what is offered; another to actively look for or create something beyond what it is offered.
BUT kids should not be doing those outside activities simply because they think it looks good for college-- nor should parents be pushing their kids in that direction. For one thing it may backfire – and for kids who truly have an outside passion or interest, it doesn’t always work out to be a benefit in college admissions. The outside activities can cause scheduling conflicts or distractions, so it can be a mixed bag.
My DD benefited in college admissions because of the outside stuff… but it also made her a very lopsided candidate because of the adjustments that needed to be made to her schedule to accommodate travel abroad. It was never a matter of college resume boosting – to the contrary, when she wanted to study abroad in high school I told her that I would support her, but that her plans could very likely hurt her chances of getting into a top college.
Can I be honest with you here? I have a son currently at Penn and after reading your daughters bio and your responses here I have to say, IMO, if by some stroke of shear luck your daughter were to magically be admitted to Penn, she would be miserable.
Please don’t take offense at this, but Penn does not feel (to me) like the right school for your daughter. It is a VERY laser focused, pre-professional school where the majority of students partake in multiple super competitive extracurricular clubs (where not only do you have to have the perfect resume, but you have to know or find a way to meet the right people to even get an interview…), complete multiple research projects , internships and secure 6 figure funding for their start ups… all by the end of freshman year. I jest, but not really. This is not the school, TBH, for someone that doesn’t have oodles of initiative or who lacks a laser focused game plan. It is a hyper competitive environment because all of the students are constantly geared towards maximizing their resumes with accomplishments and achievements and getting a leg up on the competition in addition to maintaining their 4.0 GPA’s. They are all straight A, multiple talent kids who know exactly what they want.
This isn’t the school for someone who might need guidance or direction - you are expected to go after and seek out all of the answers on your own here. It takes a certain type of person and or a certain type of background -say a connected prep school or a connected family with contacts already in the industry or an insatiable drive to thrive.
My advice would be to apply to Penn but see if she can raise her SAT scores and apply also to Temple where she probably will get some merit $$ and can go more at her own pace.
@runswimyoga What you are referring to is “Penn Face” and it is, in my opinion, one of the reasons that Penn has had so many suicides over the last few years. You are completely buying into the myth…a very dangerous tragic myth. The university has always been filled with connected go getters…and kids that are smart but often lazy…and kids who make Walnut Walk look easy. (Google that one, folks!) Penn is a great school that can also open up new worlds for kids who haven’t prepped or had a mommy/daddy that helicoptered their every move.
Is Penn right for OP’s daughter? I can’t really say. What I do think is she should take advantage of her proximity to Penn and do a visit and sit in on some classes and see if it feels right. And then think long and hard about what makes her different and how she will add value to the Penn community. If it feels right and she can come up with a compelling reason Penn should take her. And if after all of that it remains her reach…then go for it. Every kid should go for a reach…whatever their reach may be. You never know if something in your application will capture the attention of a reader.
I don’t think every kid should go for a reach. I think some kids thrive in an atmosphere where other kids are pulling them up, but others will be demoralized.
She would need to raise her scores to even have a chance, even in ED.
Here are the class of 2021 SAT R+M ranges (btw the actual class profile website reports the scores in a really weird way that makes no sense)
https://www.upenn.edu/about/facts
As mentioned above, you really need to look into fit as well.
@runswimyoga I kind of have to agree with @SwimmingDad. While what you describe is definitely a part of Penn it is not all of what Penn is. As for guidance, there is definitely plenty of that from faculty and peers but you need to actively seek it. No one is going deny you guidance and help but no one is going to coddle you, either.