<p>I don't think it is an issue of innocent or guilty children. There are many kids that need/want financial aid that are stuck by technicalities. Our laws regarding illegal immigrants are so crazy as is their enforcement that we don't need any more discrepancies between the law and the actualities. If illegal immigrants can get federal monies what about other international students who are suffering in poverty that want to come to the US for college? Why can't they be eligible for govt college funds?</p>
<p>Simply put, there aren't enough financial aid dollars available for citizens so there is absolutely no room for illegals. Children of illegals born here are citizens so they should qualify.</p>
<p>I'm thinking of a case like JoeTrumpet mentioned, a child arriving as a toddler, now 18, as American as anyone except for having no papers. I'm not ideological, so I want the solution that works best. It feels impractical (a waste of a good brain) to prevent such kids from competing for a spot in college on a level playing field. It seems like we'd all be better off in the long run to offer the best education to the smartest kids.</p>
<p>I feel badly for that kid, but his parents really should have considered all the ramifications before they chose <em>to break the law</em> and come here illegally. Whether or not he's a victim really is irrelevant. What does he do about a Social Security number? How will he ever get a good job without the proper documentation? Will he be limited to working for companies that look the other way or will he use forged (i.e., illegal) documentation? I'm sorry, it just doesn't end; it's a self-perpetuating cycle and I think there's very little room for a gray area if it's a problem we seriously want to address.</p>
<p>Ok, we differ, I don't think it's irrelevant. I'd seriously address the problem and make him a citizen when he turns 18 in a case like this, and let him compete for a college seat. We'd all be better off taking advantage of his U.S. education.</p>
<p>As Jaf states, the in state college tuition is really not the most pressing problem this kid is going to have. He needs many other things to function in society like a legal social security number. The in state tuition can be addressed by taking courses one or two at a time by working. He can get his education. Really what he cannot get are government financial money and all you are guaranteed from that is the PELL and Staffords. If you are in a state with programs, those are also in the mix. Many private schools have merit monies that they will give and financial aid to international students.</p>
<p>"Illegal immigrants pay as much taxes as any of you do."</p>
<p>And we can prove this how? Sure, if an illegal immigrant can go up to the state government and shows conclusive documents he or she has paid years of taxes to the said state, then yes, the individual has a case for in-state tuition or financial aids from the government (assuming the immigrant doesn't get deported on the scene). But that's the problem isn't it? There isn't any document that proves the said immigrant has paid any tax (not saying that the immigrant doesn't); you can't exactly file income tax when you are "undocumented" in the first place. Even an legal citizen or immigrant who goes to an out-of-state state school and wants in-state tuition must still supply sufficient documents to prove the person has met the requirements. We can't do a blanket assumption that most illegal immigrants pay taxes and therefore most immigrants should be allowed financial aids or in-state tuition. How are you going to separate those who do from those who don't?</p>
<p>There's no way for them to avoid paying sales and property (via rent) taxes. It seems disingenuous to prevent them from paying income taxes, and then complain when they don't!</p>
<p>"There's no way for them to avoid paying sales and property (via rent) taxes."</p>
<p>I didn't say they don't pay any tax (even dead people pay taxes in America), I'm pointing out that there is NO WAY you can prove it. </p>
<p>"We can't do a blanket assumption that most illegal immigrants pay taxes and therefore most immigrants should be allowed financial aids or in-state tuition. How are you going to separate those who do from those who don't?" How do you distinguish an international student who has no record of paying taxes from an illegal alien (who could have arrived yesterday or could have lived here ten years) who also has no record of paying taxes? If we allow ALL undocumented individuals to partake in financial aids or quality in in-state tuition, then that means all international students qualify for Financial Aids as well. Do you see the problem now? </p>
<p>Furthermore, paying taxes doesn't mean you are automatically qualified for FA or in-state tuition. I know a German international student who attended my high school for his junior and senior year (and doing the IB program). He pay taxes (property and sale taxes, just like you say) but he didn't qualify for the government's FA or in-state tuition when he apply to college here. I dare say he was more legal than the "undocumented alien" because he at least has his student visa.</p>
<p>Certain states, like Washington, might feel that it's fair to provide assistance to illegal immigrants, then it's their prerogative. If its people want to foot the bill, then it's their right to spend their money however they please, just as Harvard has the right to give FA for low-income, internationals, illegals, or whatever. It doesn't mean that every state in the union, including the federal government, has an automatic obligation to provide assistance without the necessary proofs of qualification.</p>
<p>"Certain states, like Washington, might feel that it's fair to provide assistance to illegal immigrants, then it's their prerogative. If its people want to foot the bill, then it's their right to spend their money however they please..."</p>
<p>I don't know, I think there might be two or three of us that object to state funds being used that way, but nobody listens to us. :(</p>
<p>I agree with Redunne. Also, in my area where there are many, many illegal immigrants, many do not pay the taxes they should be paying. They do not have SSNs, do not own property and take payments in cash for work done. I do not envy them their lives and put the blame on those Americans who hire and pay them. That does not mean that those immigrants should be getting government assistance, however. We are hypocritical enough in not enforcing our immigration rules and to continue to support what we have in our laws as illegal is worsening this hypocrisy. The situation needs to be addressed legally and legislatively.</p>
<p>You are mistaken. Undocumented aliens can file tax returns without having a social security number. They can apply for a TIN (tax identification number) for the sake of paying their taxes. Whether or not undocumented aliens choose to file their taxes is a different story, but they can and many do in hopes of one day being able to adjust their immigration status. This way they will be able to say they paid their taxes just like other Americans in spite of the fact that they had many benefits denied to them because they were illegal. This makes them contributing members of the economy despite many anti-immigrant arguments.</p>
<p>I thinks it's unjust how the government expects undocumented aliens to pay their dues just like everyone else yet denies them the benefits that are given to others. I understand where and why those who oppose immigration stand, I too oppose future immigration-- but it's unrealistic to pretend that the 12 million undocumented people in the US don't exist like a previous poster stated.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There's no way for them to avoid paying sales and property (via rent) taxes. It seems disingenuous to prevent them from paying income taxes, and then complain when they don't!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I thought there was a law that prevented criminals from benefitting from their criminal activity. Thanks for the donation to the public coffers!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Illegal immigrants are treated just as international students as that is truly what they are without legal status in the US. A big difference is that some states are allowing ANY student who can meet alternative standards for living state residency can qualify for in state rates for tuition. This varies from state to state, but in NY, the standard is proof of having lived in NY for the last three years.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's a three years' residency requirement in Calif as well. In addition, I think the student must also graduate from a Calif HS.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I thought there was a law that prevented criminals from benefitting from their criminal activity.
[/quote]
About such issues, there are facts, and there are attitudes; our attitudes govern how we react to facts.</p>
<p>The student who arrived here illegally as a toddler can thus be considered a criminal, or a victim of her parents' actions, depending on one's attitude.</p>
<p>It seems that our primary obligation as a society is to provide education to our citizens, so not matter how smart the illegal immigrant is, if they are not a citizen then our society has no obligation to them. </p>
<p>For example say for some reason we snuck into Germany. Would we expect Germany through the funds appropiated through federal programs that come from tax payers (ppl who think that it will ultimately be used for the benefit of citizens) to pay for us to go to college? No.
Heck many AMERICANS can not afford college and the government places a limit on how much they can borrow, it is only 3.5K unsubsidized. So they have to look to private loans, which the illegals should have to as well, but I think you have to have credit or something like that, but whatever.
The point is that education is the individual's responsibility and we only get assistance from the gov bc we put money in it. So since no one can prove that illegal immigrants pay taxes, the money of the ppl who work hard and pay taxes should not be used for those ppl.
Will it result in a cycle where ppl are stuck in the lower class? Yes. But from the governments perspective, its obligation is to its citizens and to its citizens only, that means illegals are outside of the obligation and therefore are on their own.</p>
<p>I guess "obligation" is another way to think about it, but I'm just being selfish in that I'll be better off if all of those around me are educated to their capacity. Our collective standard of living is based on productivity, such that educating smart minds will benefit us all. A simple law change can turn them into citizens, and the point would be moot. I'm just not stuck in the ideology; I like practical solutions.</p>
<p>Although our collective may be contigent on these ppl, it is not the GOVERNMENT'S obligation to them. I was not speaking of laws, or specifics, but basics, which is that a government is only obligated to the ppl. Which is true. Also to change a law bc so many ppl have broken it does not say much about the laws of a society. Eventually if so many ppl started killing ppl that it could not be stopped, should the laws be changed to say that killing is acceptable? Obviously not, bc laws are crafted in ideology, or rather philosophical conceptions, they have to be bc if it is focused on pragmatism then it has no lasting value. What was pragmatic in colonial days would not be pragmatic now. Society should not want their laws to be constantly fluctuating bc then there is no ground on which citizens can feel secure. Therefore pragmatism is not the concern of the law nor the government, only the ground obligation should be upheld, therefore illegal immigrants should not recieve federal assitance. Perhaps they can find alternative means as many do (bc whatever aid the government gives is not enough) like community college, or working or night school, or even private loans.
And before someone states that illegals will not have the means to obtain private loans, I would say that the statement in and of itself is inherently contradictory as the status quo is what pro-aliens seek to change then the change should be placed within the private sphere, that can look to pragmatism bc they want to make money. Therefore the illegal immigrant will be bolstering society by establishing a line of credit and buying into the economics of society, they still become educated, meeting vossron's desire and also do not tread upon the primary obligation of government and the law stays firmly crafted in the idylic conception for which it was created. That is a pragmatic solution.</p>
<p>If they are attending school in the state of Texas and are a citizen of Mexico they pay in-state tuition at UT Austin.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I guess "obligation" is another way to think about it, but I'm just being selfish in that I'll be better off if all of those around me are educated to their capacity. Our collective standard of living is based on productivity, such that educating smart minds will benefit us all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The assumption that a college education is a requisite for productivity is insulting to every American who chose a career path that did not include college. </p>
<p>Anyone who wants a college-equivalent education badly enough can obtain just about every college text book and publication at our free public libraries or via the internet.</p>