The decision--with a twist

Colleges and Universities A-Z Smith College
1

<p>Hello, all. Some of you who have been reading this board for a while may remember me and the troubles I had this year, my first year at Smith. Some of you sent me very kind that I am just now discovering, since I went several months without logging into College Confidential. For not responding, I sincerely and deeply apologize, but I hope I could call upon you for help once again. I promise a prompt response to queries this time around.</p>

<p>With just a few weeks left in the spring semester at Smith, I'm in a position that is giving me deja vu to my senior year. I was accepted as a transfer student at the University of Michigan, my state flagship, and at a somewhat obscure, but strong, liberal arts college in my hometown. My parents have long been guiding me to the U of M; my mom wanted to attend that school when she was my age and it has a certain cachet in our state. It would cost a few thousand less per year for me to attend this school, but the significant savings would be in travel costs (since flying home costs me about $500 for each round trip, and I made five of them this year). Plus, I do miss my home state and my friends and family there a lot, so going to the U of M makes sense in that regard.</p>

<p>However, as the semester nears its end here, I find myself wanting to stay at Smith. Things went horribly in the fall, but they have looked up since then. I moved out of my original house and into one where I had friends. I exchanged the roommate who had bullied me for one who tolerates me and I her. I took classes of areas of greater interest to me, specifically history and physics. The professor of the former subject is strongly encouraging me to major in her department and the physics instructors wish me to tutor next year's students. I settled in a bit more with the club I had joined in the first semester. My grades are on an upward trend. I still am not particularly fond of Northampton as a city and I would much rather be in the state of Michigan, as I feel a strong sense of belonging to that place, but leaving the college seems almost a foolish decision.</p>

<p>There are several big sticking points in this decision. My parents' PLUS debt would be well over $80,000 were I to stay here. I don't know if I can justify that amount for any undergraduate education, especially if I pursue my current career aspiration (which definitely is not a big money-maker). In addition, I am an only child and, to be truthful, my parents and I miss each other. My father in particular was vehemently opposed to me attending college here because of the distance from home and he maintains this stance today. He repeatedly asks me, "You're not planning on going back there, are you?" just to hear me say no. I think if I were to come back here, it would break his heart, and possibly my mom's, too. As it is, I need to Skype or instant message with them for at least two hours each evening to make sure they're happy, as well as to call my dad during the day. For these reasons, transferring to the U of M would make sense. </p>

<p>Were I to go to the U of M, however, I think I would be lost in the crowd. The universal opinion of students and educators seems to be that the university does not pay its undergraduates nearly the attention that it does its grad students. I am loath to pay the money it costs to attend there to rarely see a professor or to be surrounded by the party scene that many of my friends at that university seem to enjoy. While it does offer many worthwhile opportunities, I just don't know if it's the right fit for me.</p>

<p>So, there I stand, torn between two options. I can't reliably turn to my parents nor my friends here for assistance, so I turn to you. What should I do? Should I stay or should I go?</p>

2

<p>Teasing this out is difficult.</p>

<p>First, the money part. It sounds like your parents are comfortable (enough) with THEIR level of debt, or they wouldn’t have allowed you to attend in the first place. Is that correct? Or does the debt really enter into the consideration? For our family, $80k debt would have been unthinkable, and I wouldn’t have allowed my kids to go anywhere that required it. (and I would have had strong words if they were choosing to go to a school where their debt was to be more than the federal government thinks is justifiable - which last time I looked is $22k. My Smithie daughter ended up with significantly less.) But for many families, it seems just fine, and from what I read, yours is among them. So is that on or off the table? (And are you saying that UMich is only a few thousand less than Smith in any case? Not that it matters - if your parents are comfortable with the finances in either case.)</p>

<p>I would be very disturbed if my kids needed to Skype with me at least two hours a day, and call me during the day. This suggests to me (but every family is different) that MORE (rather than less) separation would be healthy for all.</p>

<p>It sounds like you understand the educational differences between the two places. Clearly, lots of folks get fine educations at UMichigan, and also clear there is a big party scene (but at a big school, you could likely find a non-party niche.) </p>

<p>My advice usually - assuming finances and other stuff is out of the way - is to love the one you’re with. (Had you been a UMichigan, written the same story the other way around, I probably would have urged you to give UMichigan at least another semester.)</p>

3

<p>Sorry, mini. I do tend to ramble on when I’m posting on here. </p>

<p>The debt aspect: my parents were not comfortable with the amount of debt that they have had to assume, but they told me to go for whatever school I liked best and they would make it work (while also encouraging me to go to Michigan). My father’s business does not turn much of a profit and my mom’s job, while it pays in the upper five figures, basically has to support the family and the business. My personal debt right now is zero; their debt for my education is up to about $21,000 after this year. That especially concerns me because my father is about to turn sixty and can’t work forever (also, his retirement fund is nonexistent). I feel guilty about burdening them with more debt.</p>

<p>However, Michigan will give me $2,000 worth of grant money for the next year if I attend. If I take the Stafford loans they offer me, we’ll be left with a bill of about $17,000 for the year. Presumably, my parents would borrow that as well; they prefer to borrow everything for college rather than pay some up front. I’m not entirely convinced of the logic behind that, but…</p>

<p>As for the Skype and IM thing, I did need that amount of time at the beginning of last semester because the situation in my house was so awful and I had never been away from home before. Now, I’ve settled into my new house and grown more independent, but my parents still expect the same amount of contact. I think it’s become a lifeline for them rather than for me, so the practice continues. </p>

<p>I agree that plenty of people do get excellent educations at Michigan; I would not dream of disdaining the Michigan degrees my friends are currently earning. It’s true that there would be a non-party niche somewhere; one of my friends follows a religion that forbids it and he seems to have found at least somewhat of a place for himself there, though it wasn’t easy. He and I are both very intellectual and I think he seems to have found his classmates to be less intellectual on the whole than mine, however.</p>

4

<p>So sounds like the cost thing is pretty much of a wash (doesn’t surprise me - for my d., going to Smith was significantly cheaper than going to the state u.). (though if you go to UMichigan, you end up with more loans, and your parents with less. Did I read that correctly?)</p>

<p>That being the case: love the one your with. It’s getting better, you’re settling in. You have the beginnings of a network, and some good opportunities. Life is improving. (And for educational quality, well you already know what I think…)</p>

<p>(In the longer run…As you know, jobs in Michigan are non-existent, and networking for UMich outside of Michigan isn’t great. I have a stepniece graduating with a 3.95 GPA in the business school at UMich, and she can’t find work anywhere, and the career center has been close to useless.)</p>

<p>The other thing that is happening at the better flagships across the country: even as they become more “selective” (i.e. rejecting more applicants because they are shrinking entering classes and taking more OOS first years and transfers), the actual educational quality is declining, in some cases, rapidly. Class sizes are much larger, help centers are being cut, there are fewer upper level course offerings, number of faculty are being frozen, and at many (certainly at UWashington, my local), it is becoming rarer and rarer to finish in only four years (hence extra costs, as well, for a fifth year.)</p>

5

<p>Phanatic, I am so happy to hear how you’re doing! Thank you for giving us the satisfaction of an update; I’ve been wondering and I’m delighted to hear that your situation has improved in a number of ways. You didn’t mention if you have established some solid friendships; I hope so.</p>

<p>Your homesickness does remind me of my daughter’s friend’s experience last year. She was in constant daily contact with her father and brother as her mother had died sometime before and this separation was really, really tough on them. She hung on and I think this year she’s been much happier, more sure of herself, more settled and more deeply connected with her house friends. Although I don’t know the extent of her contact with her family, I get the sense her homesickness has been less of an issue.</p>

<p>It sounds to me that U of Michigan is not significantly more expensive, you mention a few thousand more each year, so the $80,000 in PLUS loans, while a lot in total, may not really be the primary issue. Still on the subject of money: if you stay at Smith, to keep your flight expenses low, I strongly recommend you use FareCompare.com from between Tuesday afternoons about 3 PM and Thursday nights as you’ll get the best weekly deals then; do not make reservations on Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays. Check out the website. Hopefully that will help.</p>

<p>I’m glad you’ve got a sense of what the undergrad experience is like at U of Michigan from your friends. What you describe for a large university is typical and if you think you’d feel lost in the crowd there both academically and socially, then I also really wonder if it really is the right fit for you. I recommend that you pay attention to your gut. No college is perfect but some fits are better than others. </p>

<p>Of course you love your parents and they love you and you miss each other, but the red flag for me are your comments that you feel you need to keep your parents happy and what you are doing to accommodate their emotional needs. We have twins so we have experienced exactly what your parents have–suddenly going from a full house to an empty one. Yes, it’s hard but we know their being on their own, making their own decisions day-to-day is exactly what they should be doing. They are finishing their sophomore years and I think this year has been emotionally easier for us; we’re getting more used to their being gone. Of course we’d love to have them nearby; what parents wouldn’t? We are delighted when they are home. But they are in the process of carving out their lives and we are now no longer in the role of primary caretakers, but more like consultants, and that, in our opinion, is as it should be. My husband is an only child and I know his going away to college (from Michigan to Massachusetts) was also difficult for my in-laws, but they also felt it was a necessary step in growing up. If you stay at Smith, I hope your parents can come to terms with this and find some new outlets for themselves. If your parents don’t have the book, “Letting Go: A Parents Guide to Understanding the College Years” by Karen Levin Coburn and Madge Lawrence Treeger, they should get it, read it and apply it.</p>

<p>I encourage you to listen to your gut and think about what YOU really want out of the college experience and what you want to do with your life. Pay attention to the fact that you’re having doubts about leaving Smith. If you choose to stay at Smith, I encourage you to go for it.</p>

<p>I just saw that Mini already responded and you replied, so I’m only going to add that we just did our income tax for last year (our twins’ first year) and we got a sizable credit and refund for college expenses, so I would hope that would help next year at this time. Good luck and let us know what you decide to do.</p>

6

<p>I think the main issue is that you’re taking too much of this on yourself. It’s up to your parents to worry about their financial burden, their retirement, and even in the end how to deal with their empty nest challenges. If your parents feel they can’t afford something or the financial burden of a certain school is too heavy, they have to make that call. If they’re struggling with having you far away from home, again, they have to figure out how to deal with it. </p>

<p>It’s up to you to get a good education and prepare yourself for the next step – independent adult living. If you were really unhappy at Smith still, then it might make sense to change, as being miserable interferes with you pursuing your responsibilities. But if you’re happy there, I don’t know that it makes sense to change schools simply because you think it would make your parents happier. It’s good that you have respect for your parents and their feelings and wishes, but if you’re doing this just to make your parents happy, that doesn’t seem sensible to me. You are permitted to have certain selfish desires in this area.</p>

7

<p>This is really hard. Can you delay your decision another year and consider transferring to UM as a junior (if you take a lot of UM’s distribution requirements at Smith, perhaps)?</p>

<p>It sounds like the debt is similar, (don’t worry too much about your v. your parents’ debt; if you want to and are able to help them pay it later, you always can) so maybe you can eliminate that from your decision. If you’re happy at Smith now, I bet you’ll save money by going home less frequently (if you just did summer, j-term, and spring break instead of all 5 you’d save $3000 over the rest of your time in college!).</p>

<p>Ultimately, you need to pick where you’d be happiest. One of my coworkers transferred from Weslyan to UM; I interviewed a UM student who had applied to transfer to Smith. Both are excellent schools–I am Smith '06 and UM Law '09 and my partner was a UM undergrad, so I know both schools very well. You can party–or not–at either. You can have friends–or not–at either. </p>

<p>Finally, I wanted to point out that there are ways to compromise. One is, as I mentioned before, delaying your decision and transferring–if you want–as a junior. You could also spend a semester at UM…I knew an '07 Smithie who did this. Or commit to spending summers and J-terms in Michigan and you’ll honestly only be in MA for about 7 months of the year. Or stay at Smith and go to lots of events at UMass. Or transfer to UM and live in Martha Cook (my gf’s former dorm and one with a TON of Smith-like traditions, right down to tea). </p>

<p>I wish I could just tell you what to do but I think you have 2 great options and if you commit yourself to being happy with the one you pick, you will be. Let us know your choice!</p>

8

<p>I’ll take another tack: I think there is a value getting out of your “home” comfort zone and learning to live elsewhere. Note: I’m extremely happy that D is moving back to our state after four years of Smith and three working on the East Coast but I wouldn’t have her have traded those experiences for anything just because we missed her. (And vice versa, too, I think…she is looking forward to grad school in California. But face it, she was having more fun during the separation than we were.)</p>

<p>There is a life value in not being so insular that your circumscribe your options by tight geography. Some people boast about how they’ve lived the same place all their lives or how they’ve never been more than 150 miles away, etc., and it makes me itch just to think of it.</p>

<p>Five trips home in one year!!! Yikes!!! That’s an expense that can be controlled if $$$ really are a problem.</p>

<p>Finally, we went for PLUS loans near enough in magnitude to what your parents are spending. Verdict after the fact: best money we ever spent, except perhaps for our home.</p>

<p>Otherwise, what Mini, Carolyn, Stacy, and S&P said.</p>

9

<p>And yet another voice: I am happy that you came back to give us an update. I’ve been thinking about you and hoping for the best.</p>

<p>When we gave you advice in the fall, we were almost unanimous that you should apply to transfer with the idea that you might end up liking Smith in the end. We wanted you to have choices, whether or not you wanted to stay at Smith, and so you do.</p>

<p>As others have said, you really cannot assume the burden of your parents’ happiness. My daughter is also an only child, and we did not require nearly that much contact from her. Our only rule (despite how much we missed her) was that she had to respond to any email with “Important” in the header. We tried to talk on the phone about once a week; however, sometimes that was only for five minutes. </p>

<p>I tell people that it was relatively easy to adjust to our empty nest because our daughter was so happy at Smith despite her own horrific first roommate experience. In your parents’ case, they have been worried sick about you precisely because you were so miserable. Now that you’re happier, it’s difficult for them to break that habit of hearing from you every day. In the fall, you’ll be able to start anew with your communication schedule no matter where you are.</p>

<p>But here’s the thing: even if you go to UMich, you aren’t going to see your parents as often as they’d like. You’ll have things to do, both academically and socially. They need to understand that. I have friends whose kids go to college ten minutes from home, and even then they see them mostly on holidays, just like the rest of us.</p>

<p>University of Michigan is a fine school, but as you noted, it’s very different from Smith. When you make your decision, please let it be your own, not your parents’. Let them know that your decision (even if you choose to go to Michigan) has nothing to do with your love for them but everything to do with what you feel is right for you and your future. This is your time. You will never get your undergraduate years back, and you need to make sure that your decisions are in your own best interest.</p>

<p>Let us know what you decide. As before, we are all rooting for your happiness!</p>

10

<p>To be perfectly honest, I’m not sure I can say that UMichigan is a “fine school” any longer. It might be - but I’d be unsure. I know I used to say that about University of Washington, but with the true impacts of all the cutbacks, I certainly wouldn’t say that anymore. Kids can scramble and get a good education, but it is no longer a “fine school”, not with huge classes, major cutbacks in tutoring and other assistance, slashing of career services, freezes on hiring, loss of faculty, major loss of upper class electives (some of them needed for graduation), fewer undergraduate research opportunities, less diversity (as poor and minority students are less likely to be able to afford to enroll), and the need for the majority of students to spend more than four years to graduate (hence, comparing 4-year costs between them and other schools is no longer applicable.) We have students turning down UWashington for Western Washington University in droves as a result.</p>

<p>I know they are having massive cuts as UMich - are the impacts similar? Of course, due to budget cuts, they are becoming “more selective”.</p>

11

<p>It is very true that with the current economic downturn, all colleges and universities have been hurt, but also that the fully public and the state-affiliated universities have been hit the hardest. And it is also true that Michigan is one of the most economically depressed states in the country. While I cannot speak to the specifics of UMich, I do know that public universities are struggling to – and mostly succeeding at – maintaining the same level of academic standards as before. California has practically gutted its higher education system; yet, I don’t hear anyone saying that Berkeley or UCSD is now subpar. Universities are trying to make cuts and changes that do not significantly impact the student experience or else their reputation will plummet. </p>

<p>Personally, I’m a huge advocate for smaller LAC-style education, simply because I believe that it favors undergraduates and the development of critical thinking skills in a way that a large university with huge classes cannot. Still, that kind of close-knit education is not for everyone. Many people thrive in a UMich-like atmosphere, even if I’m glad that my daughter never leaned in that direction.</p>

12

<p>“California has practically gutted its higher education system; yet, I don’t hear anyone saying that Berkeley or UCSD is now subpar. Universities are trying to make cuts and changes that do not significantly impact the student experience or else their reputation will plummet.”</p>

<p>Are you convinced? Or is this an example of the emperor having no clothes, but no one having pointed it out yet? At UW, the cuts have had HUGE impacts on the student experience, but the reputation has not plummeted (and now they are “more selective”, and more OOS students attend, driving up reputation even as quality of education declines.) If California has “practically gutted its higher education system”, do you really think that it does not “significantly impact the student experience” at Berkeley or UCSD? </p>

<p>Is the UMich experience of five years ago the same as it is today?</p>

13

<p>Just to quickly note, I’ll probably send you a PM letter Phanatic, but UMich recieves like 7?% of its funding or something from the state.
The decreased funding has had (I’ve read numerous times) very little to no impact on the actual students. In fact, the college is increasing its investments in a variety of manners.
Also, a Michigan student told me: “Michigan has 1000 doors open- problem is, you have to find and open them yourself, no one’s going to hand it to you.”</p>

<p>Thus, although Michigan has extremely large class sizes, I haven’t heard that the economic situation of the state has had any adverse affect on the university whatsoever. Michigan is still ranked as one of the top 50 most financially generous universities off some ranking I don’t remember.</p>

14

<p>When I first went away to college (back in the dark ages) I started a routine of calling collect every Saturday morning. Everyone grew accustomed to this contact. I became concerned that I might get “in trouble” if I didn’t call. My third semester I stopped calling as frequently, and everyone adjusted. </p>

<p>I think a weaning is in order for you. No matter where you decide to go to school next semester, all of you need more space. Cut it back to an hour, then a half an hour, then <em>forget</em> now and then…</p>

<p>At the root of much of what you are writing is your parents’ wishes. When it comes to my kids, “my” wishes stop at my pocket book. I do have the right (and responsibility) to determine how much I will spend and how much debt I will incur. It is my kids’ responsibilities to determine the direction of their lives. They do, at times, ask my opinion, and I do give it. But they have to live their own lives. </p>

<p>So from what I am reading, your parents are borrowing $20K a year for you to attend Smith, but will borrow $17K a year to borrow UM. I dunno, $3K a year when the numbers are that big doesn’t seem like a big deal, and I don’t hear you saying that the money is the issue. So in my opinion, the rest of the decision is yours.</p>

<p>Take ownership of your life. Take ownership of this decision.</p>

<p>They may not make it easy (at first). But that is part of your becoming an adult. Just BE an adult.</p>

<p>When do you have to decide? Do you have to place a deposit @ UM?</p>

15

<p>I also agree phanatic. You cannot live for your parents. You will just end up resenting them</p>

16

<p>Phanatic, I tried sending you a message. Part of the message went through, but not the 2nd. The text was too much :stuck_out_tongue: so I had to cut it in 1/2. And it said your mailbox was too full.</p>

<p>I think my message will definitely help you with the decision as I had to debate Smith vs Michigan for a long time too.
PM me if you want to see what I wrote you (and I can send it again). And good luck!</p>

17

<p>I am so happy that things have turned around for you at Smith! Thanks for letting us know. I would echo the other posters. Trust your gut. Do not make your college decision for your parent’s (unless they cannot afford Smith). You will resent it down the road.</p>

<p>BTW, we do the monthly tuition plan at both of my kid’s schools, and it is much more manageable. We just sign up in the beginning of the year for a small fee, and then the payments (that we choose) are deducted each month. No way could I come up with $10,000, but having $1000 disappear from the checking account each month is very painful, but doable.</p>

18

<p>I don’t have any advice that hasn’t already been given, but I do want to mention one thing–why can’t you take Stafford loans also at Smith? Even if they aren’t packaged, anyone can take unsubsidized Staffords.</p>

19

<p>Is there an LAC in Michigan that would suit your needs? If you want to study physics, as a woman, the technical schools will give you a very good deal, because they desperately want women on their campuses. Actually any school should pony up quite a bit for a woman physics major, if your grades are good. Smith is superior, but maybe you want to look for a similar LAC-type school in MI? Comparing a big U to Smith is not comparing apples to apples. Maybe even an LAC in WI or MN? Lots of choices there.</p>

20

<p>I think it’s too late to apply to Macalester, Carleton, St. Olaf’s, or Beloit. And then there’s the compare/contrasts. You can make a case for Macalster being in Smith’s league.</p>