<p>Many of you are looking for schools for your kids or some are students yourself, and I really like how much people help each other here so I wanted to pass on something which to many people is a dirty secret of the university/conservatory audition process.</p>
<p>When you apply, you have to rank teachers (usually from 1 to 3). This is really dangerous in some cases.</p>
<p>Some teachers simply will not take you if you did not put them at #1. These are usually star teachers, who are pretty famous for what they do and have an impressive list of students. </p>
<p>There's also the much trickier thing of politics. There are some teachers who hate each other. If you put 1 over the other, if you get to your 2nd choice, a teacher who normally doesn't care too much about their ranking will not take you because you placed the department head or some colleageue they really don't like. This is the kind of stuff you can only find out by having friends who can tell you about this, or someone who really knows the landscape well. New York used to be pretty bad about this while a certain musician was still alive. If you studied with one camp of people and then unknowingly auditioned for someone in the "other" camp, you definately wouldn't get accepted.</p>
<p>The third case is more rare but it can be a big deal. Husband/wife teams. There's a number of them out there at various conservatories. In every case I know of, if you put one over the other, neither will take you because it's seen as if you're saying one is better than the other, so the higher ranked one will also refuse your application. It was weird for me to find out about this, but I'm close with the daughter of a very prominent husband/wife combo (and what makes it really difficult is that the lady uses her maiden name). She explained this to me last summer and I was blown away, because I'd made that mistake with another husband/wife thing!</p>
<p>So, be mindful of these things. If you're applying for a really top teacher, not only should you see them beforehand, but you should also do your detective work. Talk with them and make your intentions clear. I think a lot of the time you'll find that there's no problems whatsoever, but it is still well known that there are some egos out there which don't like being #2 (if for no other reason that they have 100 applications putting them at #1).</p>
<p>What are the chances of an undergraduate getting your number one teacher choice at a conservatory - or university for that matter - that has a large graduate program? Politically, if none of your preferred teachers are present at the audition, aren't you taking a risk by listing those teachers when a completely different set of teachers will be making the decision? Is the audition recorded so the preferred teacher can have a sayso in admissions?</p>
<p>I don't know, this is sounding a little too paranoid. I understand the ego of an artist, but this is such a lack of professionalism--why would any teacher at MSM or NEC (who ask you to rank) really hold this against a kid, when the kid can't get through the application without following instructions? I have never heard of that process working against an 18-year-old student who has no choice but to do what he is told.</p>
<p>That's part of the issue... a lot of times some of the more powerful teachers won't be there. That's why it is absolutely crucial to have a few lessons with the teacher you want to study with beforehand. Not only to see if you like them (you are going to study with them for 4 years, afterall), but also so they can look out for you. If they want you, you wouldn't believe what they can do in your favor (scholarships/acceptance).</p>
<p>I think this also only really applies to teachers of piano/violin and voice. The more soloistic spotlight type instruments. Although I know for a fact there's a number of big time wind/brass teachers with the same issue.</p>
<p>It really isn't paranoid, it's the truth. </p>
<p>Jazzz, I think you have a bit more exploration and reading to do if you think the music world is always professional. So much of everything is politics and who you know. They won't hold anything against you but if a teacher has 100 people applying for his studio then he'll take the best ones who are most willing to study with him. He doesn't want to be someone's runner up.</p>
<p>You may be right about the politics, but we can really exhaust ourselves as parents and make nervous wrecks of our children if we try to one-up that situation! When my son took trial lessons with teachers at, for example, MSM and NEC--it was sincerely to see how he liked the style of the teacher, and each one is his #1 choice on the application. I guess this is what you are talking about. But, I thought that was the normal procedure. </p>
<p>Geez. Too much stress! All a kid can really think about is playing his best and showing that he is eager to learn. I sure hope I am not handicapping my son by not trying to work the politics, but I wouldn't be able to do it if I tried!</p>
<p>My kid had to indicate a first and second choice. My understanding is that the teachers were also asked during the audition to indicate on the audition form if they would be willing to teach a particular student, should that student win admission. The teachers themselves do not see the student's first and second choice. The admissions dept matches them up based on their preferences, and the teacher's willingness and studio size.</p>
<p>I've known students who were admitted, but were assigned to study with a teacher that was not their first OR second choice - because that is who had studio room. Then the student had to decide if he was willing.</p>
<p>I have spoken to opera singers who found themselves in a political nightmare at their schools because of controlling manipulative teachers. There are teachers who are notorious for having favorites in their studios - to the detriment of many others. Some of these singers left the school rather than try to switch studios. I have not talked to any professionals who don't echo that advice - establish contact with the teacher and choose the school based on the teachers. Don't assume that because a school has a wonderful reputation that you will get a wonderful teacher.</p>
<p>Cartera, I'm glad that at least one person knows what I'm talking about. I'm just trying to be helpful here.</p>
<p>Jazz, your son did the smart thing by taking lessons with the teacher. I cannot believe go apply to a school where they want to spend 4 years of their lives and don't even meet the teacher!</p>
<p>About numbering. You make your rankings, then the teachers rank you. The numbers get matched up. Just keep in mind, the math works out that the most in demand teachers are going to the the 1-1 matches first, it just makes sense. That, and some of the guys who have been there longer have a lot of control over the performance portion of the admissions process and can pull a lot of strings.</p>
<p>In my opinion, as long as your son took lessons with the teachers he wants and plays very well, then his chances are good. However, if you're looking to study with a world famous, star factory teacher, then there are some things you're going to have to deal with if your playing isn't absolutely world class.</p>
<p>That gets back to my question - if a student hasn't taken sample lessons and many kids who apply have no idea that they even can - and a particular teacher is not at an audition - how can the teacher make a decision? One young man posted on here last season, I believe, that he auditioned at Peabody and thought he did well, but didn't get accepted. He got in touch with someone there who told him that he recommended admission but he didn't invite him into his studio. He was told that, even if the panel voted for admission, unless a faculty member invited him into the studio, he wouldn't get admitted. How do these other faculty members hear the person to make that decision?</p>
<p>It can be lessons beforehand, it could be they've studied with them at summer festivas (Aspen/Tanglewood are big recruiting places). Also, if you get a recommendation letter from a very prominent teacher/player who is friends with the faculty member... my friend got to study with someone really famous because of that, and the teacher wasn't even at the audition. The teacher might also accept the kid because they played amazingly at the audition, and the teacher that wasn't there can be powerful and take seniority over the people who did go, and can snatch the student up. It's no secret that the most famous teachers tend to take the most technically accomplished kids.</p>
<p>Best thing you can do is to build a raport with the person you want to study with. I did that through summer festivals and I got some really huge opportunities as a result. Of course, your playing has to be of a certain caliber, they do have to WANT you afterall.</p>
<p>Guys... Just take trial lessons if you can, otherwise just rank teachers as you're required to based on who you think you might want to study with (base it on their bios, or whatever). There's nothing you can do about politics and there's nothing you can do about whether certain teachers like each other or not. Don't stress out over it. If you're a hard worker and have potential as a musician, teachers will see that and want to work with you.</p>
<p>And anyway, teachers aren't looking for perfect players. They're looking for players they think they can mold into great musicians. If you were already perfect, you wouldn't need to study with them in the first place! I went to Juilliard for 5 years and there was tension among studios, but, in the end, I do believe that all the teachers wanted the students to become good musicians and were willing to help kids in any studio. They're not going to set fire to you if you're not from their studio or something... </p>
<p>Just do your best, play as well as you can, and you'll do just fine. Teachers WANT to like you after all. They're predisposed towards WANTING to take you.</p>
<p>Viextemps5 may be blunt, but what she said rings all too true. </p>
<p>It is best for the applicant to not be naive in the "ranking" of desired teachers. If the student suspects that admission at a desired school is a reach, it is probably NOT wise to rank the school's world renown teacher as the number 1 desired instructor. The teachers with the highest (deserved or undeserved) reputation will be sought out by the best students from all over the world. A talented but less accomplished student won't stand a chance for the top studios, but possibly could be offered a very desirable spot in the studio of another fine teacher at the institution. Some schools offer the option of not ranking desired teachers - this should also be considered as a real option if the student doesn't have preferred teachers based on realistic expectations or if the student would be happy to study with any one of several different teachers. No ranking doesn't have to be just a way to "opt out". </p>
<p>Binx is also correct in that some schools ask teachers to indicate if they would accept a student into the school and if so, would they personally accept that student into their studio. If teacher indicates he/she would accept student and student has ranked that teacher - match is made. If the teacher acceptances and student rankings don't match, student may be accepted with option choosing betweenl interested teachers. At other schools, student may be denied admission - the assumption is that student is not interested in any other teachers.</p>
<p>Each institution is different and the personalities of the individuals teaching at an any given institution may well be reflected in the admissions process.</p>
<p>As Vieuxtemps5 notes, this dilemma is probably limited to institutions where there are multiple teachers of one instrument. </p>
<p>It is also a good idea to find out if your child's "desired teacher" will be at the live audition. We were advised to e-mail several of the teachers S had had trial lessons with to remind them of the lessons they had given S and ask politely if they would be there for his audition on mm/dd//yy. He received very nice replies and good admission results!</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the points that Vieuxtemps brings up in his opening post are true. The fortunate aspect is while the politics and ranking wars do exist, they are not prevalent everywhere. Where they do exist, it tends to become fairly common knowledge fairly quickly if you do your background research thoroughly. Some of these teachers have exceptional reputations, often cited as amongst the "best of the best".</p>
<p>There are egos that require stroking, there are politics that complicate the process, there is nepotism and favoritism. It is important to be aware they exist... at the undergrad, grad and professional levels. Just like any other discipline or profession.</p>
<p>Part of this whole process is to learn these nuances as one develops as a musician and a professional. Keep your eyes and ears open, become involved in as many professional/instrumental associations as possible. Read some of the professional forums, talk to as many peers and performers possible. Everyone has their stories, their experiences.</p>
<p>The main point is to delevop that student/instructor relationship with a teacher that works for you. What works for one, does not necessarily work for all.</p>
<p>I don't mean to get all sappy or anything, but my thanks to you, Vieuxtemps5, he or she, for throwing another log onto the fire in the music forum. This is the most inspiring and helpful forum I've seen on CC and this is why: there's not only a village of people with experience willing to help everyone out, but everyone is patient--amazingly so--and respectful, and wise. I like violadad's term "nuances" to describe that very human reality of politics!</p>
<p>Thanks for that reminder musicianmom. My D just sent off a reminder email for an audition date to a teacher with whom she did a sample lesson this summer. She let her know some time ago but now it is a week away so a nice reminder was in order.</p>
<p>I never said you're going to get in trouble because of "tension" between studios, I'm talking about lessening your chances with getting in with certain teachers.</p>
<p>neumes - I'll shed a tear with you. Neither my D nor I had any idea that she could even ask for sample lessons until I read it here. It literally changed her whole approach to the search. Her search revolved completely around finding teachers and environments, not schools. Her voice teacher really wants a nurturing environment for her. She also didn't want her in a "tear 'em down before you build 'em up" environment. She has had some students that didn't make it through the "tear 'em down" part. I made the mistake of spending too much time on a professional forum of opera singers at one point. They scared me to death with their stories of ruined voices, politics and mind-games. I had to stop reading.</p>
<p>Your posts are insightful and thought provoking. They bring a different viewpoint to the table.</p>
<p>Kinda makes one scratch his head.</p>
<p>This is good. The more insight and experience one has to examine, the easier it is to make an informed decision. That's what makes this forum work.</p>
<p>I kind of need to keep my identity anonymous because I am saying things about political situations which can get me in trouble. I'm leaving an influential instructor against their wishes (which includes a lot of summer plans... I'm "supposed" to be going to X place and I really don't want to... there's recommendation letters and other such things at stake) and trying to go somewhere else and I don't really want any difficulty...</p>
<p>Understood. No need to post any specific identifying info, most don't. Sometimes just instrument, years of study, etc. helps in understanding a bit of background, and puts perspective on a poster's experience or their needs.</p>