Through pm, I have gotten some great advice about what to consider when choosing the school. Anyone care to share their experience or their own children’s experience? My son applied to good music schools and lesser known ones, but with fantastic teachers. I am finding that the fantastic teacher part does seem to make it confusing. So far, except maybe one school, the teachers may be better than at the better known school my son has been accepted to, but the better school has better players and connections and ironically cheaper.lol Luckily my son has till May 1 to figure it out.
Does the fantastic teacher teach at other schools, or only this one? As I said earlier in a PM (but will repeat here) one danger of choosing a school mainly for the teacher is that teachers can leave at any time. Sometimes they get lured away by another school and may take a large part of their studio with them. But you have to deal with transfer issues, and can end up spending more semesters at the new school. And for older students, transferring may not be worth it, so they end up finishing up their degree with a different teacher. Teachers also retire suddenly, or die. This has happened to several friends of my daughter (cellists, in fact.) These are things you can’t predict and a good reason to consider other aspects of the school.
That said, you should not make a decision based on fear. If you son adores this teacher, it’s a strong reason to consider studying with him.
The other point, about the quality of the other students is not to be ignored, however. I don’t reputation is that important, but reputation and quality are often somewhat connected.
Thanks glassharmonica for repeating here. I thought it would be helpful for others to read this as they make their decisions.
Does name recognition of music school get you very far?
The short answer is “no” but it’s a qualified answer. The name of the school might get approving nods from relatives and non-music people if they’ve heard of it, but of course that’s meaningless. However, the program you attend will establish who your colleagues and connections will be in the future. Furthermore, a powerful teacher can sometimes influence summer program admissions, grad school admissions, and even jobs in the future. Some teachers are no help this way; others are. It’s hard to call, but these are a few things to consider.
For us personally, it was about the teacher. It also helped that S really liked the school. We will see how it all works out in the fall.
I think @GlassHarmonica hit the nail on the head with her response. The reputation of the school or things like the USNWR rankings in of themselves mean little, other than maybe if you decide to be a private teacher or want to teach at a music school (not talking college level, like a local music school), having a degree from Juilliard might help get students simply because Juilliard has a name that spreads far and wide, friend of my son’s, who is Korean-American, went to visit relatives in the hinterlands of Korea, and when he mentioned he was a music student, they immediately all said “Juilliard” lol.
However, that doesn’t mean that the reputation of a program might not have some real meaning by it. Part of the reason Juilliard has the reputation it does is if you look at their faculty, they have a lot of people who are well connected in the music world, they have been performers or have taught well known performers, they are involved in big summer music festivals, etc…and because of that, they can help students establish links and such, help get them into programs and so forth (and I am using Juilliard simply because I know it relatively well, and is a school most people have heard of, the same thing is going to be true at Curtis (obviously) and at other highly regarded programs.
And this networking extends beyond your individual teacher, which could be a big difference. For example, you have a great teacher at school A, which is a relatively unknown school, but you love the teacher, others have said he/she is fantastic (and let’s say school A gave the student a great scholarship, which is common with program trying to attract star students where they don’t have the big name). On the basis of the teacher, ti is great, but it is also likely that for example, the typical student level may be well below “the big name schools”, and that can hurt a student. If they are that far below the kid we are talking about, it can mean that chamber and ensemble play may be frustrating, if the student in question is strong, and gets into a chamber ensemble where the kids aren’t that great, or in an orchestra where they struggle with a relatively easy piece, that can hurt. The other thing to think about is making contacts with the students. If you go to a program where the typical student level is really high, a Curtis, Juilliard, CIM, Rice, etc, etc, the students there are a lot more likely to make it into music as performers as a whole (that doesn’t mean that a student from School A won’t make it in music, or do well, it means on the whole, though, that given the level of student entering school A, vs those getting into the big league schools, the odds are that more kids from the ‘top school’ are going to achieve or be active as musicians going down the road…so if the kid goes to school A, he will of course create a network among the students in his/her studio, or in the school, but it is likely that if instead they went to the ‘big name school’, that in their network of students, it is more likely they will have a network of former students who have made it at the big name school then school A (again, because of the level they are playing at when the students enter the school).
And as GH rightfully pointed out, the other problem is that the less well known school might have a great teacher, but what if a)that teacher moves on or b)turns out not to be a great teacher for the student (and that happens, believe me). If you are on violin at Juilliard or CIM or Curtis or NEC, there are generally a number of violin faculty, so if “Madame X” doesn’t work out or they decide they want to get out of the cold and go to Rice, you can look among a number of studios to try and find a replacement who might work better or replace the disappearing teacher. If you go to school A, it might only have a couple of teachers on violin, and what if A was light years better then the other teachers?
My take on this (and it is only that) is that you should weigh all the factors to create some sort of ‘total score’. The items I would use are:
1)The teacher
2)The level of the program in terms of average student/opportunities to perform/gig, and other environmental factors
3)Networking/influence of teacher in the broader music world.
I would weight the teacher number higher than the other two (so for example, maybe you set up a 100 point scale as a hypothetical, teacher is 50 pts, level of program is 25, networking is 25)…you get the idea, those numbers are hypothetically a way to go about it, not something I would necessarily use. Obviously, finances come into this, too, it is all great and good to say “the great school is the way to go” if the numbers I used above show it to be favorable, but if you can’t afford it, then it has to be filtered out.
I don’t mention reputation because that may or may not reflect the elements I am talking about, Juilliard or Curtis have great reputations , for example, and I can make a case for them that it is justified using my criteria, but the fact that most people have heard of Juilliard and a number of people think it is “THE golden ticket to music success” doesn’t mean anything out there in the real world, the value of the teachers, the other kids in the program, networking and so forth is the reason.
One thing that occurs to me is that even the very “best” schools might be better for some instruments but not for all. And there is also the “orchestra” vs. “chamber” or “solo” training debate as well. What has struck me recently is how some programs are really trying to tackle the problem of what it means to be a musician in the 21st century. Others are happy – to some extent – to rely on their reputation and “name brand recognition” to attract the best students. I have heard, anecdotally, of terrific young musicians who went to a top school only to discover that their vision and the school’s are not in sync. When I was a music performance major (many years ago), it was extremely rare to transfer during the undergraduate years. Now it seems that there is much more fluidity. And many people also seem to make a lot of connections at summer programs.
Also beware of the “big fish/small pond” scenario. If you’re at the top of the studio and the best musician in your school, and that school is not Juilliard, Curtis, NEC, CIM or one of the other big conservatories (and yes, it’s also true that some schools are better for certain instruments than other) then you may have an unrealistic sense of where you stand in this world. You should aim to be in the top 10-25% percent, but to really grow as a musician, don’t aim for a school where you will always be the best. You won’t have room to grow, except for in complacency.
@ musicalkids-
That is very true, too, and it all factors in. There are ‘great programs’ that on certain instruments, the faculty is not that great, some schools tend to have great brass instruction, for example, but their strings may not be as good, and so forth. Some schools on violin still seem to be in the mode of ‘we are here to train soloists’, and therefore ensemble playing is sort of a second class citizen , in others they seem to emphasize the whole picture. I think Juilliard just announced a formal program in music entrepeneurship (think they got a 20 million dollar grant, if i remember correctly),and career building, that extended what offerings they had, and other schools are doing similar things.
You commends on their reputation and “name brand recognition” also has another facet to it, that a number of the top programs attract students who think going there is the magic ticket, they get in, have this attitude that they are among ‘the best’, and often end up really shocked when it doesn’t work the way they want. Among other things (and I am talking here on violin, which I know pretty well), at some of the top programs the kind of students I am talking about look down on chamber and orchestra, think it is for ‘failed’ musicians who haven’t made it as soloists and so forth, and they end up with a pretty rude awakening when the world doesn’t beat down a path to their door…
My son is still stunned he got into his reach schools and now regrets he didn’t add more. Your comments are helping us how to rank his acceptances.
I agree with everything, but do want to emphasize how important the peer group is. These are the people your student will be spending most of their time with - in ensembles, classes, hanging out, dorming with, studying, traveling etc. They’re also the ones the student will have a future with - and will form their greater network which is so essential to a musician. The time with the teacher is limited to only a few hours a week. Not to say the teacher isn’t important, and a bad one would be disastrous. If they’re at a more isolated school and yet the teacher knows everybody who is anybody, that can work fine in terms of summer programs, letters of recommendation, grad school etc. If the school brings in lots of outside musicians and/or composers for seminars and master classes - that’s a big plus too.
My son is getting fixated on money now.lol…finally! But seriously, I’ve explained to him our budget and so far we can afford the better school. He doesn’t need to save money and have fewer connections. I think he still feels hes not good enough and making his opinions accordingly. Thank you C.C. for getting us to apply to the better schools we did. Its truly puzzling how the teachers from home were holding him back.
Great post Glassharmonica about big fish/little pond. The quality of the surrounding students is just as important as the studio teacher. Our own son was accepted to a middle level school with a fantastic teacher. They tried to lure him with money. He never would have been as happy there as he is in his current studio. It wouldn’t have been the teacher but his colleagues.
Spiritmanager has an excellent point. It might be prudent to narrow down to several schools with both strong cello faculty and consider the competitiveness or collegial atmosphere and whether it will be a good match for your S. I recall a marvelous cellist with a prominent music educator parent accepted to Curtis, NEC and every college he applied to; he chose NEC because of the atmosphere/faculty and has had a brilliant career. A gifted violist with every advantage growing up (rich parents, summer chamber festivals, prominent youth orchestras, studied with an NEC faculty member) dropped out of Juilliard after 2 years because she couldn’t stand her peers.
Once he is there he may not feel so undeserving. I remember a Harvard admitted student day when it seemed half the kids wandered around saying “I have no idea why I got in here, they must have made a mistake.” Once school started, everyone mixed in and noone really thought about why they got in anymore.
That said, competitive environments are great soil for growth for many but can be tough for others. Finding the right people to hang with is important- as Spirit Manager said. Many musicians are actually quite cooperative and enjoy working together, as he already knows.
Just want to repeat what someone else said: summer programs are important too for meeting other musicians and making connections. There is a truly global music community these days.
We did a last round of visits and lessons with the top 3 picks (all things including $ considered) after acceptances came in. It helped her solidify what she wanted. That was when the right atmosphere, studio, and teacher came together in her mind and she ended up in the right place for her.
I’m pretty sure we’ll have to do a last round of lessons too. Or pray for skype lessons (cheaper) I hate the drive. 12 hours is brutal. My son worked with a really great violinist last summer in his chamber group and he was the nicest kid ever. And we met up with them again during auditions. The kids don’t seem to care. I really don’t know what he has to worry about. Although, I did notice, the graduate students kept to themselves during auditions. Actually, they gravitated to me and not my son. I think they needed a “mother” figure since they were alone.
The post acceptance visits are completly different from the pre-acceptance ones. The tables are turned and the schools are trying to sell the student on comng there instead of student trying to sell themselves. DD had more interactions with current students and prospective studios.
Oh. Good. Were the teachers a little more relaxed and helpful too? I’d like him to visit with every cello teacher if possible.
Good luck cellomom6 (lots of cello folks on here, myself included.) Happy researching!