@Jkellynh17, I know CCPA is not in the top ten, but it does have a huge amount to offer–location in one of the best theater cities in the country, supportive faculty that allow/help students get theater castings outside school, connection with Tammy Mader dance studio, etc. I think it’s a great program,and my only worry about it is that it is so large. Within the Chicago area, I think the CCPA name does have some weight. I’m using CCPA as an example to show there are lots of reasons to look beyond the touted top ten. In terms of quality-of-training, I think the separation between top 10 and top 30 or even top 60 is pretty slim.
Michigan is awesome,for instance, because they want you to take 1/4 of your classes outside your major and leave school well-educated and well-rounded. This is unusual for a BFA but there other big schools who encourage this too.
Are Pace or Montclair considered “top ten”?
@jbrideau - it depends on who you ask as to whether virtually ANY program is top 5, top 10, top 15, top 20…and on down the line.
I think monkey13 raises an interesting question and I like that her D was clear-eyed.
Everyone is different, but my own take is that yes, there are many 17 and 18 year olds who are not ready for a BFA program. I realize that to some people that might sound like a euphemism for ‘not talented,’ but it’s not. Some will never be ready, true–but who? How do you tell the difference between someone who, no matter what the training, will never succeed, versus someone who just needs more time to cook and grow and learn?
The fact is that people grow at different rates. You might have a kid enter a program at the bottom of the waitlist, who, by the end of the 4 years, is the most promising student there. You might have a student who is never cast in college because there seemed to always be someone more talented, and yet 5 years out, that student is a successful, working actor. Conversely, you can have a student who is amazing at 17–who doesn’t grow at all.
My approach would be–if my kid didn’t get in, but desperately wanted to be an actor, I’d do a gap year and reapply. This is actually typical in the UK. It is common there for students to audition 2-3 years in a row before they get in. During the gap year you can continue training, gain experience, work, and yet whether you really want to be an actor. At some point you do have to go to Plan B. But when that is is highly individual decision.
@toowonderful, my D said that before she even began the audition process. I will never know for sure, but I think she meant it. However, she DID have some idea of the national competition. She went to Stagedoor for 7 summers, used MTCA for coaching, and did a weekend master class with a famous Broadway actor who spent a lot of time working with her and talking to me. She did not have any professional credits on her resume when she graduated, but she had worked with people in the national pool, if you will. And no famous relatives.
@connections, YES. Some 17 and 18 year olds are NOT ready, but may be in a few years. Some never grow after 17. This is true, and really important…thanks for pointing that out! If my D hadn’t gotten in and wanted to take a gap year, I would have let her. But if she wanted to give up, I would have let her. Like you say, a highly individual decision.
As the mom of two senior MTs at different programs, I’m seeing more clearly now how this is all wheels within wheels. A kid from one of the “Holy Trinity” schools who is supremely talented may graduate and “Go Directly to Broadway” while another “Holy Trinity” grad may languish in the city, having fun, working a survival job, lacking motivation or desire to get out and audition daily. Meanwhile a kid from another “Big Name U,” equally talented, may have to go home every single summer during college to save money work a traditional job to help foot the bill for school, thus never participating in the resume-padding and networking that is low-paying summerstock/summer theatre work. At the same time, a kid from “Small Town U” or “Up and Coming U”, also talented, may be supremely motivated, work every summer in summerstock across the Eastern Seaboard, make lots of connections and graduate with an iPhone contacts list full of people to call for job leads, a strong reputation in the business, and maybe even some Equity Points. Another kid, equally talented, may forego college altogether, head directly to LA or NYC, take classes, attend open calls, and slowly get some heat. Does the school matter? Sure. But there are theatre professionals with great connections working at lots of different schools. And there are kids out there working professionally from a variety of backgrounds. Having now seen my boys work with kids from MT programs from all over the country at their various summerstocks and theatre jobs, I now tend to think that the student and the student’s work ethic might matter more. Talent. Type. Luck. Preparation. Persistence – all have to be present. Only a select few students will even have the choice of attending one of the top programs. There are a heck of a lot more kids at smaller/lesser known programs who are unbelievable talents. And there are more out there not going to colleges or conservatories at all. There’s no right or wrong path, only what’s right for your student – and even that’s not an exact science, since they don’t always have a say in where they finally land. Cast a wide net, select your final program that best fits your family in terms of academics, artistry and finances, and then encourage your kid to work hard and take advantage of as many opportunities as possible in and out of school. That’s all we can do. Don’t get bogged down in the rankings. Success can take many paths!
@monkey13 - as I said, obviously I can’t claim any insight on what your daughter was thinking/feeling. I am just saying that the stress of “the process” can make for unlikely declarations. So important to remember that these are kids- very limited worldview
Reading the recent posts on this topic, I am reminded of how excited people sometimes get about the ‘Big 10’ article/post about the top 10 colleges represented on Broadway (the most recent was 9/2015, I think). When I read posts/articles like these, I am definitely interested, but the info really has to be taken with a grain of salt. Not to say that those 10 schools (and some others as well, obviously) aren’t top-notch programs that would likely be amazing to be a part of, and to thrust you into the alumni network/reputation that those schools have. But there are so many factors to consider when reading a list like this. I looked at all the graduates from NYU and will get back to those specifics in a minute, but let’s look more broadly.
First of all, if we look at those 10 schools, let’s say that, on average, they each graduate 15 students a year (I know that Tisch has multiple studios and is graduating a lot more than that, but they have one focused musical theater --used to be Cap 21 and now New Studio on Broadway–so let’s just go with 15 graduates from each college on the list each year for now). That’s 150 students each year from those top 10 schools. Most of the people on the list in that article are no older than mid-thirties, so that’s a pool of about 15 graduating years of students. So, there are, at any given time, 2250 graduates (15 per year, 10 schools, spanning 15 year age span). On the entire list of 10 schools, there are under 200 people listed. So where are the other 2000 graduates? I am absolutely certain that many of them are working in the performing field in some other capacity. Just pointing out that looking at which school has the most grads on Broadway at any given time isn’t necessarily the best predictor of whether my kid will make it to Broadway. (if we had broadened the pool by saying there were more than 15 graduates per school–Tisch for example–we’d have a lot more than 2250 graduates but still have the same under 200 performers on the list, making it even more of a stretch). Making it to Broadway is a lovely star to reach for, but ‘working professionally’ is a bit more realistic, and articles like these don’t take into account all the people working professionally in the field who aren’t on Broadway.
Second, if we just look at the NYU grads listed in the 9/2015 article, it’s a little misleading. There are 47 performers listed. However, at least three dropped out and didn’t graduate, so the program itself can’t be what brought them success. At least five were dance majors, not in the Tisch acting studios. Jackie Hoffman was in college in the late 1970s. I doubt that any of her professors are still there/alive, so I don’t think her experience at NYU has anything to do with what our kids might learn. At least three were at Steinhardt for voice (classic) training, not involved in the studios. One appears to be a voice instructor at NYU but I don’t see any info anywhere about his attending. And, interestingly, seven of the people listed got their MFA from NYU but their BA/BFA elsewhere–all in schools that aren’t ever listed in any top schools list So of those 47 listed, 20 were not really ‘NYU students’ in the sense that our kids might be trying to be ‘NYU students.’ Their numbers are closer to CCM in reality (which I don’t think has an MFA performing major to beef up their numbers).
And third, this is obviously a tough profession. Not only is it tough to be young and pounding the pavement looking for gigs, but it’s super-tough to get a little older and want to create a family while working. But if our kids love the theater world, there could be a place for them that they aren’t even aware exists at this point in their lives. Through attending college (yes even a college that isn’t listed in every article ever published) and getting their hands dirty in a variety of experiences, they may find that they also love directing, or teaching, or producing, or tech-ing, or whatever that still allows them to be a part of a performing community, or to perform. Some professors are encouraged/required to work professionally and they act/direct in the regional/local theater world while also teaching others about this world. We can’t reason with the ego of a 17 year old who wants the limelight, but as they mature, they may find a related calling that feeds their passions just as well as acting might.
We should all encourage our kids to try their best, but if my kid decided that he didn’t want to go to school for theatre just because he couldn’t get into one of the tippy-top schools (and it was more than a case of 17-year-old in the middle of audition season nerves), I’d listen to him. Or at least talk to him about the possibility of the BA Theatre Arts track instead of the BFA performance track. Maybe let him study something else (or get a job in another field). If the acting bug had truly bitten, he could always come back to it. I could probably write another novel-length post about people who studied non-acting fields in college and are working actors.
As an example^ we have a friend who was Elphaba in a National Tour of Wicked, has worked Off-Broadway and consistently in regional theatre, is a recording artist…and she got a BS in Neuroscience.
@love2act - you make many interesting points. Not sure what the slight fixation on NYU’s representation on the list is about. There are other people from other schools that didn’t graduate (ex Sean Grandillo- Ithaca who was in Spring Awakening) or major in MT. In Point of fact - NONE of the Juilliard people listed in musicals (like Pippa Soo in Hamilton) were MT majors- b/c Juilliard doesn’t offer an MT major.
@toowonderful I wouldn’t say ‘fixated’ on NYU. It took me a long time to look up all those 47 people to see what the real story is. I wasn’t about to do it for all 200, and to choose the top school with the most people listed gave me more bang for my buck. Sample size is all.
@love2act - You clearly spent a lot of time. But to ME - and I will freely admit a touchy spot in the subject because: 1. I have a kid at NYU, and 2. I have vivid memories of a time when NYU bashing was an extra curricular CC activity, the points you brought up have greater validity if they are not only associated with one school. So I mentioned a couple others. Btw- NYU’s new studio (the MT Studio) graduates significantly more than 15 people a year. So does BOCO - also on the list. And looking at all schools again- I saw any number of people who graduated 20 years ago at many of the schools, so NYU is not the only place where you might not get taught by the same people who taught Brian D’Arcy James at Northwestern, or Christian Borle at CMU (listening to something rotten as I type)
All these posts have some wonderful points. My only caveat is assuming college adjuticators should be the end all of saying a person is “worth it or not”. Remember these are judgements by a few on one day and based on three minutes. I think it it is great feedback, but I think you also need to listen to your child’s current teachers and really think about it. We may be a bit different as we pushed back for years on our kid going into an arts direction. Our kid had to really push in the last 12 months to go this direction. If she does not go someplace she wants she will take a gap year. We also talked with a casting agent in NY and asked specifically about our kid graduating from a “no name school” or no school how could she help. We got some good feedback. There is just not one way to go and yes your kid does need to at some point figure out if the raw talent and drive is there.
@toowonderful not NYU bashing at all. It’s the article I’m pushing back on. And if top schools graduate significantly more than 15 and still there are under 200 in the article, it shows that the odds are even slimmer than the numbers I crunched that any kid will make it to Broadway, making me feel even better about not putting too much stock in such articles.
There is an interesting point to made with respect to the original post. Many (realistically most) working actors will eventually decide to focus on a career that affords them more control than acting, or at least to supplement their acting income. I’ve noticed over many years of knowing folks in the theatre world that many kids who enter programs with extremely strong resumes (like those mentioned in the OP) or who achieve success very quickly after graduating, often including Broadway credits, tend to be among those who decide more quickly to expand their focus to include areas beyond acting, often including directing, choreographing, teaching or casting. I can’t say why (possibly they’ve already met some professional goals, are tired of constant auditioning, were leveraging prior success as a way in to a great college), but in my experience this certainly includes kids who attended “top tier” schools.
I think that most people have different opinions on what “success” is and agree that there are different avenues to achieve it.
I know several actors who I would consider to be successful in their craft. These actors are consistently in equity shows in regional theatre, do guest spots on tv shows with occasional supporting roles or day player gigs in movies. I think that because they are continually working in the business, they are successes -steady pay checks from equity jobs and tv/film work with residual pay coming in on a regular basis.
I have always been perplexed when reading comments about kids dying to get into “top” schools (and this is in both theatre and regular forums), as if all of the thousands of other schools lead to mediocre lives. “Regular” folk from “regular/not top 100” schools take up the bulk of college graduates I believe and somehow manage to live happy and fulfilled lives (as in have families, how cars, take vacations and pay for their kids to go to college too).
You don’t have to be the CEO, president, Broadway star, lead in a film, work on Wall Street to succeed in life (or to make a lot of money).
This thread has certainly evolved from the OP (do auditioners who have professional credits/famous relatives have an edge in college auditions) to does the school matter. And I think @MTTwinsinCA got it perfectly…yes, the school matters (training, connections, reputation), but there are so many more factors that go into success (talent, drive, intelligence, personality, type). You will ALWAYS have kids from no school or kids from unknown schools “making it,” and kids from the “Holy Trinity” not making it. However, I don’t think it is possible to assess how much the school matters in these equations. In other words, we will never be able to say, “Attending a top school will increase your chances of success by X %.” In fact, we probably can’t even say, “Attending a top school increases your chance of success.” Because how do you measure it? And how do you tease out the training versus the attraction (do “top” schools attract the best talent, or create the best talent?). We will never know.
As for the lists, they are ALL flawed. The buzz feed lists are one (usually random) person stating their personal opinion. The other lists are based on criteria that are questionable. I have been guilty of touting the lists when my D’s school is on it (the most recent one ranked all the theatre schools in NY, and Ithaca came out #1, over Pace, Syracuse, NYU and Juilliard. BUT…when you read the fine print…it was the general public voting. It is not scientific. It is pretty meaningless. You can’t help but feel a little pride or relief or something…but really, those lists are meaningless. As for the rankings based on grads on Broadway, they are usually wrong. I know the last one that came out missed several Ithaca grads who are currently on Broadway. And what about the West End? National tours? Wonderful regional theatres like Goodspeed and Papermill? Off-Broadway? What about correcting for class size? What about people like Sutton Foster or Aaron Tveit who left early?
I guess what I’m trying to say is that yes, the school matters. But it is not the only factor, and it is not the determinative factor. And a school that’s better for one child may not be good for another (e.g., a kid that needs to beef up acting training shouldn’t go to a school that has only one acting professor and concentrates on voice). The name of the school may open doors, offer contacts, etc., but when it comes down to it, if the auditioner is not wowing them in the audition room for the job, they will not get the job, regardless of their training. We’ll never be able to come up with a list of the definitive top 10 schools. We’ll never even be able to agree if the Holy Trinity are the best 3 schools. And we will certainly never be able to assess the degree that school matters. Pick your school based on fit, money, and the training your child needs. If your kid has all the things that @MTTwinsinCA mentioned, they will have a better chance of success, regardless of their school. Whatever that means.
This has been one of the more interesting threads lately with lots of people giving really great view points.
One thing I would say is that after all these students and young actors make their way through the early stages of their careers, they might be thinking of branching out to other directions, i.e. directing, casting, etc… as if these professions are any easier to succeed in!
Unfortunately, they are not.
Well maybe a bit- but the same drive, talent, luck, perseverance ,and butt busting work goes into becoming a top agent, director, manager. ( Beauty counts for less but it always helps!). It’s tough to be a huge success in ANY business. Connections, connections, connections are the operative word. Like “location” for real estate. They are ultra important in any facet of the entertainment industry.
A person who wants to make a life on stage and doesn’t will have to develop the same degree of ambition and talent in something else. I know! I went from being a dancer into something that I could “have more control” over, and life in television production has been every bit as competitive as aspiring to Bway. There are no sure paths in entertainment. It’s a glamorous field in which lots of people want a place.
My point?
Kids should know that other parts of showbiz are NOT a fall back. Open your mind, explore and work in and with as many venues, people you can while you are training. Don’t take the narrow path.
For my child success will mean to me that she is happy and making a difference in whatever path she decides she wants to go on. Will that be moving to New York and trying to make it on Broadway? Or will she wind up working for Disney? Or working regional theater in a bigger city like say Minneapolis? Or going back to get a master’s in something like music therapy or drama therapy or fine arts? Will it be that she decides she wants to teach theater? Or work in Christian music? Or decide to go to law school? I have no idea what will happen, but the key thing is that her training in musical theater will be invaluable as she decides what her future will be.
What I have learned thus far in this journey as an MT parent is that my D has talent, not just as a singer/dancer/actor but in working with other people collaboratively, in establishing a strong work ethic, in working through issues, in understanding not just the hows of MT but the whys (why did a writer write a song that way, or create dialog the way he did, or stage something the way the director did). In short, she has learned not just performing skills but how to think - both critically and creatively. And no matter where her career path takes her, those skills will serve her well. And I think she would have developed such skills regardless of what school she went to or its ranking, etc., etc.
So for the OP worried about competing against others, or those worried about getting into a program, or what your chances will be of success afterward, no one can sugar coat it. It is hard to get into a program. And no one can guarantee success afterward. But what my experience tells me from watching my daughter and others at her school, both BA and BFA students, is that a theater degree and background offers kids a lot in terms of both professional and personal growth. And ultimately that’s what a college education should be about.