<p>What is so unfair about the informal quota system?</p>
<p>Look at it from the adcom point of view. They can't pack the class, for example, with students from one or two countries, just because they have fantastic profiles.</p>
<p>My proposition is simple. They want to achieve ceratain diversity, so kind of quota is invariably followed.</p>
<p>And,there is nothing unfair about it.</p>
<p>this is such a useless conversation</p>
<p>^Agree .</p>
<p>"What is so unfair about the informal quota system?</p>
<p>Look at it from the adcom point of view. They can't pack the class, for example, with students from one or two countries, just because they have fantastic profiles.</p>
<p>My proposition is simple. They want to achieve ceratain diversity, so kind of quota is invariably followed.</p>
<p>And,there is nothing unfair about it."</p>
<p>Didn't I say on the last page that they can do whatever they want? Sheesh. What a useless waste of time this thread was.</p>
<p>dude...seriously...you just contradict your own views...</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, it is tragic that lots of colleges in US seem to have a quota system(in the name of diversity) in admissions in terms of China Vs Indian Sub-Continent- which includes Pakistan, bangladesh, Nepal etc</p>
<p>So if China gets 10 seats, India gets 3 seats! Why, because Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal have to get 3 seats each.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
1. India 83,833
2. China 67,723
[/quote]
</p>
<p>FTW?</p>
<p>This is what I stated in my post, right:</p>
<p>"It is a given that Indians represent the largest chunk of international students in US. May be, this is going against them when it comes to elite institutions"</p>
<p>And the statistic includes both undergraduate and graduate students.</p>
<p>So the debate is about admission to elite institutions- where I feel the 'informal' quota system is going against 'u know who'.</p>
<p>Well, quite a lot of people, with the short term interest of 'admission to ivy' outlook, are not getting the bigger picture. So let us put an end to this debate.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So if China gets 10 seats, India gets 3 seats! Why, because Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal have to get 3 seats each.
[/quote]
[quote]
1. India 83,833
2. China 67,723
13. Nepal 7,754
[/quote]
Pakistan?
Bangladesh?</p>
<p>Well, your math don't add up...</p>
<p>Oh! I am not interested in hair-splitting.</p>
<p>Example: Lafayette College-Class of 2011</p>
<p>No. of international students:40</p>
<p>China:9 India:3
Pakistan:3
Bangladesh:3
Nepal:1</p>
<p>That's only one example. Do you have any more data to proof your 'quota by country' theory? There may be target for overall international students but I've never heard of a quota by country.</p>
<p>For example, there is a certain school in Singapore that sends a lot of students to elite colleges in the States ... for example in 2005 (no. of admits): Cornell(94), CMU(27), Duke(17), Michigan(88), Penn(16), Stanford(12), etc. RJC</a> Success Rates 2001-2003</p>
<p>If I get a dollar for every India students I met at Michigan, I'd be rather rich.</p>
<p>thats the gateway to ivy league u're talking about ^^</p>
<p>plainb, as a Chinese student I think you're certainly wrong. I can't get specific statistics for Indian students get in every year, but I'm sure Chinese applicant's accepting numbers varied greatly in recent years. For example, Yale admitted 15 Chinese students the year before last year, but only less than 5 this year. Brown admits two in 2005, almost 20 this year. Williams admitts about ten students last year, less than 5 this year. If a quota system exists, I would speculate Chinese student will get roughly even numbers every year, because the annual class number is restricted. But the fact contradicted with your hypothesis. </p>
<p>I've no disrespect for Indian students, however, as a Chinese HS student to be admitted by elite schools are extremely difficult. Look at my SATII grades, I only got into Brown and Yale's waiting list this year. My chance to be admitted is scarce. I've a friend got full SATI, II grades, AP scholar,got tons of prizes, but still missed all Ivies. This year more than 2000 Chinese students applied Dartmouth, only 5 got admitted. There isn't any great advantage as a Chinese student in applying elite schools. Good at math? Then ten Chinese IMO gold medal students will compete with you to go Princeton math department. Good at English? Every year more than twenty SAT 2400 students are also applying to HYPs. In every area vast numbers of top Chinese students are competing for a few spots, the competition is relentless. So in my eyes your opinion is quite biased. Besides, Lafa only admits about 5 to 6 Chinese applicants this year, almost no financial aid.</p>
<p>Nice post!</p>
<p>I do not know why u feel so bad about the "informal" quota that Adcoms implement to balance their classes and to maintain the diversity of campus.</p>
<p>Here's a kind of mission statement of Dartmouth:
"Dartmouth is dedicated to creating a community of individuals with diverse perspectives, backgrounds, and experiences. To this end, Dartmouth enrolls students from over 70 different countries throughout the world"</p>
<p>As regards, your data about such fluctuations in intake of Chinese students, tell me, can anybody explain such dips and increases on the basis of demographics, statistical probabilities and long term trends. The percentage of bright students in any given population can not fluctuate so wildly!</p>
<p>Therefore, according to me, artificial adjustments are invariably made by Adcoms from year to year for the sake of diversity. The above Dartmouth 'objective' makes it very clear. I never said a quota in the rigid sense. I always said informal So I stick to the proposition that Country-wide quotas exist.</p>
<p>Do u know one more thing? If u ask Harvard and Stanford to provide country-wise applicants and admissions, they would not disclose, as a matter of policy. They like to keep these things confidential.</p>
<p>Also mull over why all college applications want u to give data about country of origin, ethnicity, race, language spoken etc.</p>
<p>So such year to year fluctuation of admits from China can't be due to lack of merit of candidates from a particular year-it is controlled.</p>
<p>And this year, as u might be knowing, has been the most competitive year ever-3.3 million college applicants, a record.</p>
<p>plainb: Thanks for your long reply. </p>
<p>let me break your post into smaller contentions, and I'll explain that in detail. Then you can tell me if my understanding is right or wrong. </p>
<ol>
<li>I do not know why u feel so bad about the "informal" quota that Adcoms implement to balance their classes and to maintain the diversity of campus.</li>
</ol>
<p>Please scrutinize my post carefully, I believe I didn't say anything good or bad toward that system. I listed facts and I only want to say that such a system didn't exist at all. Personally I've no special sentiment for India or China. As you may observe, I'm not a top student, so in other words I don't think I can be admitted by HYPSM or top lacs. I just want to say you're not right. I think Chinese culture has pros and cons, I'm not a nationalist or something to advocate my opinions. </p>
<ol>
<li>Here's a kind of mission statement of Dartmouth:
"Dartmouth is dedicated to creating a community of individuals with diverse perspectives, backgrounds, and experiences. To this end, Dartmouth enrolls students from over 70 different countries throughout the world"</li>
</ol>
<p>I think this is a common attitude held by lots of schools, not only elite ones. </p>
<ol>
<li>As regards, your data about such fluctuations in intake of Chinese students, tell me, can anybody explain such dips and increases on the basis of demographics, statistical probabilities and long term trends. The percentage of bright students in any given population can not fluctuate so wildly!</li>
</ol>
<p>I can explain that. Chinese applicants' quality varied from year to year. Not only numbers, but the absolute top students applied each year varied greatly(for example, the ones got IPHO gold metal, I know quite a few). I would say that most of top schools admitted Chinese students on merit based scale, not on demographical concerns. My Yale, Princeton, Brown interviewer all confirmed that. I didn't have chances for Harvard. Please keep in mind that China is the quickest developing country in the world(of couse India is also growing fast). Lots of things happened here isn't like that in other countries. </p>
<ol>
<li>Therefore, according to me, artificial adjustments are invariably made by Adcoms from year to year for the sake of diversity. The above Dartmouth 'objective' makes it very clear. I never said a quota in the rigid sense. I always said ’informal’ So I stick to the proposition that Country-wide quotas exist.</li>
</ol>
<p>I didn't have personal relationship with adcoms. All I know is these numbers did manifest great fluctuations over the years. Brown admitted 2 in 2005, about none in 2006, 7 in 2007, and 20 in this year. Princeton admitted ten last year, five this year, three the year before last year. I guess informal quota system may did exists, but I can't observe it from a ten year period obervation in our charts(we have annual statistics, how many, from which HS, admitted by a specific school each year). So I have to say the informal quota system theory couldn't be testified through real data. </p>
<ol>
<li>Do u know one more thing? If u ask Harvard and Stanford to provide country-wise applicants and admissions, they would not disclose, as a matter of policy. They like to keep these things confidential.</li>
</ol>
<p>Actually these data isn't secrets. Stanford admitted 3 in REA this year, about 5 in RD this year. I guess you can get similar charts in Indian forums. Then we can make a comparision or something. I don't think the publication of official numbers are important for we can count that in our own. I know you mean they want to hide the quota system, but the data in our side only showed the number of students Harvard and Stanford admitted in China did fluctate greatly over the years. </p>
<ol>
<li>Also mull over why all college applications want u to give data about country of origin, ethnicity, race, language spoken etc.</li>
</ol>
<p>yes. This happens a lot in second rate LACs. No disrespect, I know Middlebury and Wabash did have such systems. But I think that may not the same in lots of other schools. For example, Bard admitted about five in 2000, ten in 2005, 48 this year. The number of Chinese applicant didn't change a lot over the 8 years(150 -170). I can verify this for I was admitted, and ready to go there. So I think sometimes it's only a source of informaton to know the applicants better. A migrant in US three years must be very different from a native New York dweller. You ignored this side in the above discussion. </p>
<ol>
<li>So such year to year fluctuation of admits from China can't be due to lack of merit of candidates from a particular year-it is controlled.</li>
</ol>
<p>I want to say it is. The number of top Chinese students applied and enrolled each year did fluctuate a lot. I got into Peking University this year, one of the best university in China. Lots of my colleagues I know dumped US colleges to go this university. For example, one of my friends was admitted by Columbia this year, full fa, he dumped Columbia for Peking University. You can't predict how many willing to go a specific school in the end, not could you predict how many will apply to overseas, since lots of students here also applied to Cambridge and Oxford, LSE, Tokyo University, etc. </p>
<p>8.And this year, as u might be knowing, has been the most competitive year ever-3.3 million college applicants, a record.</p>
<p>I know that. But this still doesn't make your theory reasonable. I quote students admitted from China in a long scale, not only 2007 and 2008, I think you know that. </p>
<p>My facebook account is Zhou Changwei. You can find me easily.</p>
<p>BTW, I strongly opposed to the title India VS China. Maybe we're the largest groups of students applying to US each year. However I didn't think the title reflects your intention correctly.</p>
<p>Off-topic: 0739085, I think it might be wise to remove your name from the post above.</p>
<p>I posted the link to RJC's college acceptance record (post #29) as proof that there is no 'country quota' in admission.</p>
<p>In 2005, Cornell admitted 94 RJC grads, of which 12 matriculated. That's 4.5% of all the internationals in the freshman class. In 2004, Cornell admitted 78, none matriculated.</p>
<p>In 2005, Michigan admitted 88 RJC grads, of which 24 matriculated. That's 10% of all the internationals. In 2004, Michigan admitted 111, none matriculated.</p>
<p>And RJC is only one school in Singapore. Without a crystal ball, how do the adcoms in Cornell and Michigan 'artificially adjust' admission to 'implement' country quota?</p>
<p>^ sry but now he can't.</p>
<p>NBZ: Thanks for your suggestion. I find I can't edit my post. There is no edit button in my view. </p>
<p>I also want to say all my data are about mainland Chinese students.</p>
<p>What is this Singapore RJC business? I don't get it.</p>
<p>Check out this link: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/world/asia/27seoul.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/27/world/asia/27seoul.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss</a></p>
<p>Raffles Junior College (RJC) is an elite Singaporean high school and a feeder school to the Ivies and other elite colleges. The link I posted is the actual admit and matriculation data year-by-year from RJC to these elite colleges.</p>
<p>My point being: If schools like Cornell and Michigan practice 'country quota', they wouldn't admit so many from one school. For example, Michigan admitted 88 RJC grads in 2005 and 111 in 2004 while enrolling only around 240 internationals in the freshman class. In 2005, 24 from RJC matriculated. Thus for that year, at least 10% of the incoming internationals were Singaporeans!</p>
<p>The data also show that matriculation rate for international applicants is hard to predict. In 2005, 12 out of 94 matriculated at Cornell and 24 out of 88 matriculated at Michigan. In the year prior, none matriculated at either school.</p>
<p>And this is only one school from one country. As many as 80 countries are represented at Michigan. It is virtually impossible for adcoms to maintain any 'country quota' even if they wanted to.</p>