<p>Can I hear some viewpoints/comparisons on these schools (not incl. Army/Navy), particularly Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, and Colgate (HC is too far & too cold)...difficulty of admissions, generosity of financial aid, environment (campus, students, profs, dorms, social, town, etc), "prestige" of school/degree (in general), difficulty of studies (again, in general).
Hoping to get some insight & comparisons. Thanks for your input.</p>
<p>I think Colgate is the hardest to get into (27%) and the most academically respected of the four. I would put Bucknell and Lehigh about even with acceptance rates in the mid 30%s and avg SAT ~ 1310. Lafayette is a little less selective and a little lower on the SAT side, avg SAT ~1280. Colgate and Bucknell are the most rural and in the smallest towns. All four have a social scene that has a relatively heavy influence come from fraternity life. I get the impression that Bucknell is the most conservative of the four and Colgate the most liberal, but not by that wide a margin. The Colgate and Bucknell campuses are two of the nicest I've seen in the country. Colgate is the only one of the four where you can't study engineering and while Bucknell and Lafayette are two of the only two LACs with engineering (Swarthmore and Union are the only other two I know of) it is not nearly as prevalent as it is at Lehigh.</p>
<p>BigDaddy3,</p>
<p>We have two ds. One is Colgate Class of 2008 and the other Holy Cross Class of 2009. Do not know where you are travelling from but for us both are 3000 miles away. HC is located in a much larger city with many more choices in public transportation. Colgate on the other hand costs us a small fortune in taxi rides from Syracuse to Hamilton. As far as temperature and weather conditions are the SAME at both schools. I check the temps daily on line and there is virtually no difference between the two.</p>
<p>Academically, they are both awesome schools. Both D's have been very pleased with their choices. Both feel they get a great amount of attention from professors and love the small class sizes. They have each sat in on the others classes and both found the other's classes interesting. The D at Colgate seems to do an enormous amount of writing and the one at Holy Cross seems to be doing more reading. Just my observation in listening to their complaints. Each are maintaining good GPA, but both admit, not without a lot of work. Feel free to ask any other questions on these two schools as we have visited each many times.</p>
<p>In terms of academics and prestige, they're all great, but I agree Colgate reigns the supreme and most-respected (unless you're speaking of engineering at Lehigh or IR at American)
Colgate
Lehigh
American
Bucknell
Lafayette
Collegey of Holy Cross </p>
<p>Also, I will say, to the best of my knowledge, that Colgate will be the coldest and most snow. Because of it's locations (city of Worcester, 3rd largest in Northeast), the snow effect is minimized and Worcester is not that cold.</p>
<p>I can give personal feedback on most of them, perticularly Colgate and American. But you'll need to be specific b/c there's a lot to say about all of them. Do you want info on the academics or campus/location/res life</p>
<p>I didn't realize that HC/Boston actually had milder weather than Colgate. Preference is for a "milder" climate than I think is N of Pa, and a non-city campus (that's why I excluded American). Seems like Colgate has the better overall reputation, but would everyone agree that a grad of any of these schools is pretty impressive? Do you agree that they are just a notch below the Ivy's, or are the differences more pronounced? With a D, I'm a little concerned about the frat scene, but it appears that Greek is big at L, L, B, and C. HC is probably a little too far for her to consider (at least at this time). If any of the grouping was a match, do you think all would be a match, or would Colgate for example be a reach? Anyone know how financial aid compares among the above 4? D has seen both L & L. Felt Lehigh was perfect size (obviously she loves Princeton's campus too), and though pretty, Lafayette a little too small. How do the others compare beauty/size wise? Betlehem/Easton not horrible, but don't think I want her walking around either at night. This D is not a varsity athlete, but does keep in shape and commented on the distance from campus of athletic/running fields at L & L. What is the set-up at the others? She has a younger sister who this might be a more important issue for. Undecided about major, but not an engineer/math/sciences future. More LA or business. We welcome all comments. Thanks again.
PS Didn't mean to shut off conversation about American, just that DC area concerns me. What is the campus/area really like? How does it compare to the other schools?</p>
<p>Sorry, forgot to ask, what is the housing/dorm quality like at these schools. The buildings look nice from the outside, but what about size, cleanliness, security, etc. Are coed dorms by room or floor the norm now, or are there single sex dorms? How prevalent are sororities at each? I'm not in favor of Greek, but it's her call. Would she be in the minority at these schools if she lived in dorm?</p>
<p>BigDaddy, if she isn't a varsity athelete why are you so specifically grouping the Patriot schools together? I think Colgate has more in common and more overlap with applicants to Dartmouth, Cornell, Middlebury, Williams, Tufts, Bowdoin, Bucknell than it does with Lehigh or Lafayette. IMO, Colgate and Bucknell campuses are much nicer, but that is usually a subjective reaction. Both Colgate and Bucknell are in smaller, more rural, safer towns, although I don't think Easton is that bad from what I've seen. I would say the avg student at Lafayette may consider Colgate at least a slight reach, although I'm sure there are many that would get into both, so it is certainly a case by case thing.</p>
<p>At Colgate, all freshmen and sophomores will be in dorms (most coed, some single sex) and about 40% join a frat/soror sophomore year, although, especially in the case of sororities, not that many girls actually live in the houses.</p>
<p>Big Daddy, American University is in a nice tree-shaded low-profile spot at the end of Embassy Row, all of D.C. is blocked out barely visible, it not even really in the city. </p>
<p>Guys, help me, American to D.C. is almost Long Island to NYC, Bel Air to Downtown LA. I studied at American last summer and it is very suburban LAC feeling than any comparitive urban/city college. The are of D.C. you are worrying about is ways away. American is in Tenleytown, a quaint historic residential are, that coupled with being near Embassy Row (high-secure) give it visible safety that any mother would be assured by. </p>
<h2>Colgate's waterside campus is naturally beautiful. You couldn't possibly deny the beauty of either Colgate or Bucknell's campuses. American's campus, those nice, is quite small/minature per se b/c of D.C. limits to height and # of dorms. </h2>
<p>I would not say that the Patriot League schools are a notch below the Ivies, in fact, within the League, they're on quite different levels.</p>
<p>Colgate, Lehigh engineering, and American IR are a notch above the rest the Patriot League. They are all a excellent schools, but really, Colgate is only school I'd deem elite, but really, prestige and comparison to Ivies should not really matter, especially when you can be assured that all six of these schools are wonderful.</p>
<p>American is rather limited in athletics facilities aswell with the relative campus size.</p>
<p>For business and social science, American and Bucknell would be your best options.</p>
<p>i tend to think that a grad of any of these schools is pretty impressive, but perhaps thats because i am one (bucknell '06). ill break down your questions...</p>
<p>admissions: </p>
<p>colgate is definitely the most difficult to get into of the four, followed by bucknell, lehigh and then lafayette. the differences are not great, however; if lafayette is a match colgate falls into the 'high match' category, below a true 'reach' like cornell. another thing to consider: both lehigh and lafayette are markedly easier to get into for women, as both schools have male-dominated student populations. each as an ~42% acceptance rate for women compared to ~33% at bucknell and ~28% at colgate.</p>
<p>financial aid: </p>
<p>as far as i know, all schools on this list are need-aware in making admissions decisions. colgate is probably best known for turning down borderline applicants who need aid but in so doing is also known for providing some of the most generous need-based aid in the nation. along with colgate, bucknell is the only other school of the four that promises to meet 100% of demonstrated need. three of the schools-- bucknell, lafayette and lehigh--have merit aid programs. </p>
<p>environment: </p>
<p>town: bucknell and colgate are very definitely in rural america, though colgate is the more rural of the two (lewisburg has a walmart, fast food, etc in addition to a 'cute' downtown). as such, both are very much 'bubble' campuses. lehigh and lafayette are definitely less rural, but neither are in a particularly good area, as you mentioned. </p>
<p>campus: bucknell and colgate have perhaps two of the most beautiful campuses in america. colgate takes the patriot league theme of schools on a hill to another level with its mountain-side location, however. both are full of beautiful, old(looking) buildings that are state-of-the-art once you walk inside. the best of both worlds, in my opinion.</p>
<p>students: all four of these schools attract a very good share of upper-middle class americans. based on pell grant and financial aid application figures, colgate, by a good margin, draws the wealthiest student body, followed by lafayette. bucknell and lehigh tie for third. in terms of politics, i would place all four on the 'conservative' half of the spectrum compared to other top liberal arts colleges, with colgate being the least conservative of the four. but like most schools, all are nonetheless left-of-center in terms of overall leanings. in short, the preppy stereotype does hold pretty true, though there are enough combined engineers and arts kids on each campus for everyone to find a rather large niche.</p>
<p>professors/academics: i was extremely impressed with nearly all of my professors at bucknell. i know lafayette and colgate students who feel the same way. i honestly cant comment on lehigh, however, which is the most intriguing of the four because of its profs larger graduate responsibilities. </p>
<p>social: being in rural locations, both bucknell and colgate really do go the extra mile in making sure there are many things OTHER than drinking to do on a saturday night. that said, drinking is a pretty big part of the weekend social scene at all four schools, which take the 'study hard, play hard' philosophy relatively seriously. that said, i can speak for myself as a drinker, but not a heavy drinker, that i was never without multiple, varied options on how to spend my saturday nights. even at parties, it wasnt a pressuring environment at all... i even had two non-drinking friends go greek.</p>
<p>dorms: i can only speak for bucknell here, as i dont really remember enough about the others. most of the comments on my freshman dorm (the worst on campus, though i think its being renovated for the class of 2011) by visitors i brought through it for campus open houses and accepted student days were impressed that it was that it was as bad as it got at bucknell. so i guess ill say they range from so-so to quite nice. one other comment: lehigh was one of the few schools i visited (in 2002) that still allowed smoking in dorms, something to consider if its still the case.</p>
<p>prestige:</p>
<p>of course, this is a loaded term. however, i would probably say that 'prestige' for most colleges is pretty closely related to admissions selectivity. i dont believe any of the four on this list are an exception. holy cross, however, probably does carry more prestige than its average sats and acceptance rate would imply. as such, my list for the six all-sport pl schools is as follows: colgate, lehigh, bucknell, holy cross, lafayette, american.</p>
<p>running opportunities:</p>
<p>again, i can only really comment on bucknell here. bucknell has brand new fitness center as well as an indoor track on the lower half of campus, probably a five minute walk from any of the freshman dorms. the outdoor track (limited access) is located around the football field just outside two of the freshman dorms and for a more cross-country feel there are numerous great places to run. bucknell is within close proximity to a great trail that borders the susquehanna river. many students also jog through the athletic fields across route 15 from the university (theres an underpass for pedestrians) and in the beautiful area around bucknells golf course. </p>
<p>... </p>
<p>whew... i probably missed a lot of what i intended to say, but thats my fairly-comprehensive take on things. if you have any more speicific questions about bucknell, feel free to ask me here, on bucknells cc page or through pm. im starting to get bored with 'summer' and am more than willing to help. bucknell and colgate were my final two, so to speak, so i can answer more specific questions along those lines, as well.</p>
<p>I don't think Bucknell is a better option for social sciences than Colgate. Someone at some point on here posted a thread how Colgate had the second highest concentration in social sciences among the LACs. Colgate has more students going on to get a PhD in Economics, Political Science, Sociology than Bucknell despite a 20% smaller class size. Also, while Bucknell has offerings in accounting and other business classes, I've seen Colgate students have more access to investment banking and strategy consulting jobs than Bucknell students and be way more represented in at least the three classes of business school I was associated with in getting an MBA.</p>
<p>Eric, I think you sell yourself short. I would overall put Bucknell in front of Lehigh.</p>
<p>Gellino, he said business and social sciences. One, for anything related to business, international trade, or economics...I'd without question put Bucknell first. Colgate yes for political science but for combine business and social science (on top of that, Bucknell actually has an IR program) I'd say Bucknell, sorry bro. And yes, I understand the name recognition in relation to iBanking, but there is much more you can do with a business degree than iBanking and if she's serious, she'd be getting an MBA anyways, a Bucknellians do pretty well at getting into grad programs.</p>
<p>This is Bucknell vs. Colgate not Bucknell vs. Dartmouth, I mean, yes Colgate is the well-respected of the bunch, but it's not on a pedestal.</p>
<p>"Gellino, he said business and social sciences. One, for anything related to business, international trade, or economics...I'd without question put Bucknell first. Colgate yes for political science but for combine business and social science (on top of that, Bucknell actually has an IR program) I'd say Bucknell, sorry bro."</p>
<p>On what basis? </p>
<ol>
<li>Colgate is better in economics than it is in poly sci at least in terms of what I saw as far as the people in each discipline, the profs in both depts and what jobs and grad schools people went onto.</li>
<li>Colgate has an IR program. I had several friends who majored in it, including one who went on to get a PhD from UChicago and become a prof at Georgetown.</li>
</ol>
<p>1st. I mean Bucknell has a fully-staffed International Relations Program w/ actual Professors and Chairs assigned specifically for this, Colgate is a well-organized, but still, a collaborative concentration major that borrows almost entirely from the PoliSci course offerings. They have no Professor Kresl holding an actual office down like Bucknell. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Again, we are not comparing schools that far away, I've met Bucknellians and Colgate alum at Columbia & Georgetown. I've also known Bucknell alum at Fletcher (Tufts) and Woodrow Wilson (Princeton). </p></li>
<li><p>I still say that Bucknell has developed it's strength (aswell as invested it's money) in this area so much that it does have the upperhand between the two if you have any interest in business, economic development, international trade, or globalization.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>on lehigh v bucknell, i gave lehigh the 'prestige' edge because it is a national university and does what it does well (engineering, business) very well. that said, i do think bucknell provides a better undergraduate educational experience and therefore is a better choice for the majority of students. either way, the differences arent major.</p>
<p>one point that i think most would agree upon is that colgate is the most 'well rounded' of the four colleges and moreso than in other areas of study, the strength of social science programs tend to correlate well with the strength of a university as a whole. as such, if i had to rank, id probably give colgate the edge. but again, the differences arent major.</p>
<p>thats the sum of it, really. each school has strengths... and weaknesses. and in the end one simply winds up with a conclusion that the net differences really arent major.</p>
<p>edit: international relations is a growing program at bucknell. interesting to point out kresl, as he actually holds dual appointments in ir and economics (which is where he holds his chair). many of the other ir professors also teach within multiple departments: stephen stamos, david mitchell, richard walker and adrian mulligan. the only dedicated ir professors are hilbourne watson and emek ucarer (both of whom are great, by the way).</p>
<p>Thanks again everyone; the responses are extremely informative and relevant since we do appear to be focused in on these schools. My D was running "searches" and based on her criteria the schools mentioned (along with Princeton, Cornell, W&M, Richmond, UVA and a few others) were listed among her favorites. NY was as far N as she wanted to go; Va as far south, looking for a "medium-size" school (Gettysburg, Dickinson, Swarth, Haverford all too small in her opinion), and she didn't want a city campus. I guess we shouldn't assume that American isn't a good fit; it's worth a look when we visit the Va schools.. I read a book a few years ago by John Feinstein about bball in the Patriot League. That's why I referred to the sports affiliation. Did I understand one of the posts above to say that these schools might be considered on a par with the Ivy's? I'm not disagreeing, I just wonder if many of you think someone could be accepted at an Ivy and turned down at a Bucknell or Colgate. From the book I was already impressed by these schools, but I felt they might be a notch below HYP & co. My D will probably apply to Princeton, but she tells me that she thinks that a "reach". Thanks again for all the input; it's very impressive (and reassuring) to read the passion and feeling that students/alumni/parents have for these schools.</p>
<p>Holy Cross is the only Patriot League school in a mid-size city Worcester, and is only 1 hour from Boston. The proximity to a great city like Boston gives HC a big advantage over its Patriot rivals which are very remote. Also as far as Us NEWS rankings- Colgate, HC-Bucknell, Lehigh, then Lafayette. Colgate has always enjoyed top Patriot LEAGUE academic rankings while HC was ranked 25-27 until last 3-4 years. With a 42% increase in apps this past year, HC"s admit rate should be comparable to Colgate and Bucknell. Also HC has the richest sports history havung won NCAA titles in Div 1 basketball-1947 with Bob Cousy, and NCAA baseball in the 50's with a trip to the Orange bowl.</p>
<p>The Feinstein book is a good one that I enjoyed as well and you should be able to glean from it the similarities between the Ivy schools and Patriot schools. Academically, the Patriot schools are very good with a lot of similar opportunities available to its students, but not exactly at the level of at least Harvard, Yale, Princeton. I have heard of some cases of people who get into Cornell, but rejected at Colgate, but it probably occurs with more frequency the other way around, although PR does rate the selectivity of both the same. In my class at Colgate, about 1/3 of the people who applied to Cornell were accepted, but came to Colgate instead. I also knew of some cases of people choosing Colgate over Penn, but so much with the other six Ivys. In fact, Colgate has commonly been referred to as the 'Dartmouth reject' school and I know for my class that 61% were either wait-listed or rejected at Dartmouth.</p>
<p>How "miserable" does the weather get at Colgate? Cornell? HC? Are there vast differences in temp & snowfall from what winter is like in mid-Pa (Bucknell)? Any "warm weather" students want to weigh-in on what the adjustment was like? Basically, is this a big deal or not? Thanks</p>
<p>I think I saw on the collegedata site that avg Jan temps for Cornell, Colgate, Bucknell, Holy Cross are within three degrees of each other. However, the lake effect causes a lot more snow at Cornell and Colgate than the other two. I think it was cold for everyone at Colgate and people just adapt accordingly, although I love that kind of environment so am probably not the best person to objectively answer the last part of your question.</p>