<p>I found this article while browsing the Penn website… I’m not sure how old this is or whether this has already been posted on CC, but it is certainly a interesting read…</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/12/15/fp11s1-csm.shtml[/url]”>http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/12/15/fp11s1-csm.shtml</a></p>
<p>Okay so from the article which talks about the class of 2002, I'm assuming this is a couple years old... but some things mentioned in the article are quite valid even for now...</p>
<p>I always wondered what the conversations must be like between the admissions officers. I'm just trying to think of what they would say for me! Good article though.</p>
<p>100% valid even now</p>
<p>Excellent article and proves how a single "recommendation" can end up knifing you in the back</p>
<p>Stetson: "She ended up getting a 120 point increase on her SATs. But it just proves even more that she's not using her ability."</p>
<p>Doesnt it mean that they only count your highest SAT scores?</p>
<p>They referred to someone with low grades as a student with a "sprinkling of B-pluses."</p>
<p>That makes me feel real comfortable..</p>
<p>Comparing two female candidates, one accepted and one rejected is very instructive and on some levels very disturbing and points out the hypocrisy of The Committee and writer's willingless to ignore just the right facts</p>
<p>(QUOTES FROM THE STORY)</p>
<p>An African-American female from Florida who is president of her senior class at a mostly white school. She plays basketball and has good grades. Also, she took a strong curriculum that includes several AP courses. But her math SAT is weak, given her desire to major in business at the elite Wharton School. Decision: Accepted. Key factors: She's from an outreach zone in Florida - and she applied early or she could have been shut out by tougher competition in the spring. Her high school math course will be monitored and she will be encouraged to take summer math.
"Let's watch this one very closely and help her succeed," says Anita Gelbard, associate dean of the Wharton undergraduate school.</p>
<p>OUTCOME: ADMITTED</p>
<p>A senior at a strong private school, this young woman has high test scores, including a combined 1,480 on her SATs. But her grades are weaker. She has applied to the College of Arts and Science as a philosophy major. The college is eager to admit women. But all three in the room worry her merely "rigorous curriculum" is not the "most rigorous available." Also, that even deferring her might send the wrong message to the school.
"We've got a lot of B's on this transcript, including four in her junior year," Jackson says. "She's described as having lots of potential. But there's a lot of depth to this class. And she's got too many B's for me to be comfortable at a school like this where we do see their top kids coming to Penn."
Stetson: "She ended up getting a 120 point increase on her SATs. But it just proves even more that she's not using her ability."
Jackson: "There are so many B's on her record in a rig [rigorous curriculum, see glossary]. Still, she's in the top 15 percent of her class. I'd like to hold onto [defer] her." Stetson: "Do we get much from this school? What kind of community is it?" Jackson: "It's a middle-class community. It's not a Scarsdale or Mamaroneck, but it's not White Plains either."
Stetson: "Patti, you're thinking we should let her go [deny] now?"
Schindler: "Well, yeah, it's the B's and the rig - that's not going to change [before regular admission]."
Stetson: "What do you think, Quenby?"
Jackson: "One of the letters or recommendation says she has a really strong interest in bioethics and he thinks it's a nice match for her. But he goes on to say that she handed in late work. He thought that was OK because it was honest and it was her own work. But nevertheless, I don't think it's an excuse for handing in late work in high school.
Stetson: "OK, let's let her go then."</p>
<p>OUTCOME: REJECTED</p>
<p>(END QUOTES)</p>
<p>Why didn't the writer from the Christian Science Monitor in his article state the actual SAT scores of the accepted applicant?. Are we supposed to believe he didn't hear what they were? How "low" is low"? The scores in fact are so low that the Committee points it out. Where is her class rank. A reader of this article has no way to judge her actual capability because the writer has obviously held back information. The writer readily accepts the candidate as being from an "outreach zone" in Florida (a "mostly white" school) Parts of Florida are now being deemed on par with Alaska or some other extreme geographic locale? Apparently affirmative action candidates cannot even be written about honestly, as it might violate some unwritten rule. Its hardly surprising that The Committee (and the writer) are not going to bring up the AA word, better to pretend that color-coding was not a factor. Its all about outreach zones. Any negative information for this candidate - is reinterpreted in the most favorable manner</p>
<p>As for the top 15% in her class "fron strong private school" rejected applicant with the 1480 scores (funny how writer prints that) is now condemned by The Committee for increasing her scores 120 points, basically as somehow being lazy. (It probably means she wasn't coached and learned via experience). Handing in late work (what one time?) apparently now is on par with cheating? Note how The Committee is contrasting bioETHICS with this candidate who apparently once handed in late work. Any negative information for this candidate -is looked at in the most unfavorable light</p>
<p>i don't know about comparing between the two candidates, but just judging from the one rejected applicant and from my experience here at penn, that rejected applicant didn't seem to stand a chance... from my time here, i just haven't heard of any people (that i know: friends, acquaintances, etc.) who got some Bs or B+s in high school and still got accepted. The exception would be a music major friend, a legacy and several athletes... people who had other reasons for getting in, etc. Obviously a couple B+s wouldn't have been THAT bad, especially in 2002 when the pool was less competitive than it is today... but I just didn't read about any compelling reason to accept that candidate in the article. S/he just sounds really plain. And in comparison with this year's entering class... really really plain.</p>
<p>That's my two cents... I can only offer my immediate perceptions, but maybe I'm just contributing to speculation that no one can authoritatively affirm or deny for sure. :( Of course, it's only from what the writer did include in the article... I doubt important information that would have made the application "sparkle" would have been omitted from the article, because it is so crucially relevant.</p>
<p>The point made is not whether the rejected applicant stood a chance or not in absolute terms, instead it is the dramatic contrast between the manner and reasoning process The Committee utilized with each applicant, and the author's apparent complicity by obviously leaving out key information</p>
<p>i wasn't replying to your post at all. actually, i didn't read it until now. in terms of the article, i commented on what i thought about getting a few Bs within the context of a plain holistic profile as an applicant vs. what i see on campus today from the very small sample of people that i know. also, i honestly don't think there's such a thing as "absolute terms" when it comes to evaluating applications to ivy league schools.</p>
<p>again, it's possible that things which would have made the applicant "sparkle" were omitted from the paper, but i doubt it and all we can do is speculate.</p>
<p>with so many outstanding people applying through both regular and early admissions from all economic classes, genders, and backgrounds, why on earth would you admit someone like that unless there was something particular (ie. legacy, athlete, location) that the admissions office can consider?</p>
<p>oh wait, yes i did read the first few sentences of your original post but i didn't intend to reply to it since i didn't finish reading it. :) maybe someone else will care to. in the meantime, if anyone has any questions about penn, feel free to pm me.</p>
<p>adriana86, what is "a few B+'s and B's"? are you saying that everyone you know who got in had all A's? what about 2-3 B+'s total?</p>
<p>a few people have asked me this... and the best answer i can give is going to be vague, since i'm not an adcom and i don't want to add to your stress by giving speculation that might give an incomplete picture:</p>
<p>i've certainly met a few people with some Bs on their transcript. they've all been in music or recruited athletics or strong legacies. that's not to say that the small sample of people that i know (out of 9,000 students on campus, even a big number like several hundred is small) is perfectly representative of the population. i would say that in order for a few B/B+s to NOT hurt you, you'd need something extra special to compensate ... especially since Penn rejects hundreds of valedictorians every year. they just were not special enough i guess. it also depends on the difficulty of your school. all this is pretty obvious... when in doubt, apply and give it your best shot! </p>
<p>the holistic application process is subjective and i know that the committee would rather have an intensely creative, passionate, honest and dynamic individual who may have made a couple mistakes while experimenting with diverse, difficult classes in high school ... than someone who has all As but took the safe route geared towards some pre-professional area without exploring their options and diversifying their talents. let's hope that if you have some Bs/B+s that you are like the first type of person. by including so many facets of your life, stats and accomplishments, the application process is designed to be forgiving: therefore... spend extra time to write thoughtful and honest essays, really emphasize in your interview/applications why you think you would fit penn specifically, and very clearly let penn know that you would be an excellent addition to its vibrant campus for this or that reason. from my one-time application experience, it's the same with all the ivy leagues and stanford... i really felt with each school that the adcom really just wants to get to know your whole life perspective better.</p>
<p>also, and again, i am open to giving feedback if you pm me. if my inbox is at full capacity, wait a couple days. i applied to a bunch of similar schools and was accepted so my time interacting with the admissions offices might be helpful, i dunno. the ivies i haven't interacted with are dartmouth, brown and cornell... so can't help you there.</p>
<p>thanks for posting that article it was really interesting</p>
<p>yes thankyou, interesting hits it on the mark</p>
<p>This is really old news actually.</p>
<p>Heh, I wish it was new news. I could use those acceptance rates (29% for Penn overall).</p>
<p>Great article... By the way, after reading the article, what do you guys think the admission officers view were on a school that draws alot of applications?</p>
<p>Are they more willing to accept a student from a school with few to no applicants or one that sends many?</p>
<p>its not so black and white. there are obviously going to be advantages and disadvantages to both. penn's always looking to diversify its population, hence coming from a school with less applicants/prior penn students may be good. on the other hand, some schools just feed tons of kids to penn every year... ie. in philadelphia a high school sent 30 kids this year (i'm not sure if its the accepted number or the matriculated number). i would say as an international it may be a lot tougher coming from a school with no prior history with ivies since i find ivies tend to accept kids from the same elite private high schools (at least in my country) and public school kids in random areas tend to be cut out.</p>