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hmm. why not? even if you didn't do that research, you're still somewhat ahead of someone who didn't do any research. i'm assuming that even if someone didn't conceive of the idea that they still know how to use equipment that someone who has never done research before won't know how to use, they should know how to go through, find and read relevant scientific papers, and should know basic data analysis. even if they didn't do "research" they still did SOMETHING in the lab...and they can always learn
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I-I don't know what to say to this...I was only going off personal observations. I'm...sorry? That and NEPOTISMisBOSS...always.</p>
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If you look at what the past years' finalists have accomplished, you'll see that Intel does a pretty good job of picking out those students who will be successful scientists.
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<p>I lol'd.
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If the Intel / Siemens awards were all based on the mentors' ideas and research, I doubt you'd see the former award winners accomplishing so much in later years.
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<p>No one said they cant accomplish anything. Just that those competitions don't do much for a science career except get you into an elite school (and since people are already getting into elite schools without the awards...).</p>
<p>As for the scholarships, I've seen various cases of prize money not being applicable to college tuition because of the winner's finances and the college's aid policies. How sad.</p>
<p>Ya thats true. A friend of mine won 8k for getting a 240 on the PSAT, but MIT just took 8000 from his aid package. The same for Intel, MIT just deducted 1000 dollars from the package. But some schools like Harvard are so much nicer about it; they count the money toward work contribution meaning if you win 1000 dollars from Intel, you don't have to work in the summer or not as much.</p>
<p>Ticktock: thats weird, why didn't they go to your school?</p>
<p>Shalakshasa,
Some folks <em>do</em> go directly into research freshman year or beginning the summer before sophomore year. Others go directly into graduate courses. It depends on the area one is studying (some fields are better for substantive research at an early stage than others) and whether the school one attends is accommodating in this regard. </p>
<p>Some folks delve into Intel/Siemens research as a means of stretching themselves beyond the limits of their HS's resources and may be quite happy to be challenged in their college coursework or explore other directions once they get to college.</p>
<p>If folks have questions about Intel or Siemens, there are previous threads that have covered some of this same ground already. If folks have specific questions, feel free to PM me.</p>
<p>omg, there is no National Merit award for a 240 on the PSAT. Perhaps it's an external or state-level award. Congrats on your 237 -- defnintely nothing to sneeze at!</p>
<p>shalshaska64- I am both a siemens and an intel semifinalist, and I have to agree with you...these and other similar contests should not be taken too seriously...I personally only entered these competitions on a whim, they were by no means my primary goals through my research...I believe that those who have worked solely for these contests most likely A) did not even do the work themselves or B) did it just for college and thus is just wasting their time in the long run.</p>
<p>S, excuse my typo. I'll excuse your attitude, too.</p>
<p>For the record, my S was doing research for its own sake. Had he not gotten something interesting (which his prof put on record as saying even HE didn't expect S's results, and that they were totally S's original work), he would not have submitted to competitions. He was not after glory or college admissions -- just interesting results which he hoped might be published. BTW, he is NOT at HYPS.</p>
<p>There are a sizeable number of Intel SFs and finalists whose work is original, innovative and indicative of a potentially long and successful career in the sciences. Intel finalists go through interviews that focus largely on the areas of science one is NOT expert in. If you submitted a math project, you'd darned well better be able to discuss in-depth biological questions, even if you haven't cracked a textbook on the subject in three years. Siemens Regional Finalists face a panel of ten judges from a wide range of disciplines asking questions about their projects in a format akin to a firing squad. (S said it was harrowing, but a lot of fun.) </p>
<p>Intel and Siemens have their flaws in terms of selection and evaluation processes, but overall, they do manage to find some pretty darned impressive folks. Not everyone selected for Intel or Siemens is or will be a superstar; there are plenty of you out there who didn't do Intel or Siemens who will go on to great research and discovery.</p>
<p>No Westinghouse/Intel Grand Prize winner has ever won a Nobel Prize. That should be encouraging news to a whole lot of folks (except the 67 previous winners)!</p>
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S, excuse my typo. I'll excuse your attitude, too.
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<p>And I'll excuse your Oedipus Complex.</p>
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For the record, my S was doing research for its own sake. Had he not gotten something interesting (which his prof put on record as saying even HE didn't expect S's results, and that they were totally S's original work), he would not have submitted to competitions. He was not after glory or college admissions -- just interesting results which he hoped might be published. BTW, he is NOT at HYPS
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<p>There are exceptions to everything. What field are you and your spouse working in, BTW?</p>
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Intel and Siemens have their flaws in terms of selection and evaluation processes, but overall, they do manage to find some pretty darned impressive folks. Not everyone selected for Intel or Siemens is or will be a superstar; there are plenty of you out there who didn't do Intel or Siemens who will go on to great research and discovery.
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<p>That's the problem though, people think Intel/Siemens recognition is a sign of stardom. In reality it's usually a sign of something else, which I won't go into for the sake of this latest round of semifinalists' pride.</p>
<p>I think the competition has changed greatly from the Westinghouse days that have produced Nobel and other major award winners. In the past 10 years there is a trend to reward the packaged university-driven projects from state science fairs to ISEF and STS. But there are those who have made extraordinary strides through independent effort and without grooming or spoon-feeding. Let's not insult the accomplishments of all of the students and instead give them the benefit of believing they have in fact produced their projects through their own initiative.</p>
<p>A kid might start out doing research just for the prize money and admission to college, but in the process might very well get hooked on science and research. That's a great outcome in my mind given the decline in kids interested in engineering and science. </p>
<p>I'd venture that many, if not most, "real" scientists are motivated in part by prizes like the Nobel and Fields Medal, not to mention fame.</p>
<p>CountingDown, we had the pleasure of seeing this young man (from the NYT article) do his presentation 2xs at the JSHS last year. He was quite amazing. He won 1st in the life sciences category. btw-- this competition was held in Orlando, and the judges were mostly military scientists.
This is another example of how the top kids manage to wow judges in different competitions, which leads me to discount the nepotism and "awards for sale" theories.</p>
<p>I'm curious as to what you think it could be a sign of.</p>
<p>Perhaps there are some kids who do these competitions for the "glory" or college admissions. The kids I know (including the one in my house) do it out of passion for the subject. These projects can take years of research. Unless the student is really passionate about it, it's difficult to sustain that kind of interest.</p>
<p>While it's great to be an Intel semifinalist and all of that, you don't need to be a genius or even reasonably intelligent to do well.
I recognize a school on Long Island which gets a lot of them- do you know why they get a lot of semifinalists/finalists? The school is right near Stonybrook!
So yea, pretty much.</p>