<p>In reading over several threads today, I noticed several posts about sons and daughters who found their niche with peers and some who did not. Clipper's posts in the EA/ED thread come to mind as well as Sac's post concerning her son at Columbia. </p>
<p>My question for anyone and all is, what kind of school attracts a higher percentage of kids who are interested in learning for learnings sake as opposed to learning to get them ahead (to med school or law school)? Is it a preprofessional bent that attracts this success oriented student? I am wondering how you evaluate this "very specific" area of fit and what colleges you know of that have a good percentage of students that are intellectually curious. Most people seem to think you can find this at the Ivy's but I wonder if that is true. I am also wondering how many of you found that niche in grad school as opposed to undergrad?</p>
<p>You pose a very interesting question. First I should say that "career orientation" and "intellectual curiosity" are not mutually exclusive. Intellectual curiosity -- a desire to learn things, perhaps a wide range of things or perhaps in a particular area -- is valuable in future careers and the economy.</p>
<p>That said, however, I think there are some schools where the students put their studies at a higher priority than at other schools -- even among the best and brightest of them. When my son applied to colleges, one thing he wanted was to find schools where he wouldn't be looked down on for thinking but also a place that wasn't full of self-important "intellectuals." Although you can find this kind of environment within the better (and best) state schools -- especially in honors programs, but definitely not across the board at any such school -- you can also find it at some private universities and colleges, including the large technical schools (MIT, Caltech), certain other large universities (e.g., Chicago, Columbia, JHU), and at many small colleges including my own alma mater (Reed).</p>
<p>I'm not sure and would be curious to see what answers you get. In my mind, the top LACs would probabaly attract more of these students. Lots of kids on here seeem to know (or think they know) what they want to do....and choose appropriate schools to support their intended career choice. </p>
<p>I think the best approach (outside of the LACs) is look for schools that offer a wide breadth of choices, allowing the student to change his/her about majors and explore various options. Many of the Ivies strike me as being very preprofessionally focused, which is not my preference for my own son. I'd rather that he develop his mind, not a specific career.</p>
<p>Momsdream, don't know if I agree with you. One of the neat things we found at many of the Ivies (not exclusive to them, of course, but striking) was the number of kids who were majoring in Portugese literature but interested in Med school, or studying linguistics but planning on law school, etc. At our own state school, EVERYONE is pre-professional.... "going for" physical therapy, or "going for" early childhood Ed.</p>
<p>I think your kid needs to hang out for a weekend at any school that's under serious contention. Every dorm has its quirks and isn't necessarily representative of the entire student body, but if by Sunday night your kid hasn't found a bunch of like-minded individuals, that would be a red flag for me....</p>
<p>That's a good question, Lizschup, and hard to get a definitive answer to. We stressed the same attribute when looking for schools, and S ended up at the same school as Sac's son, and is very happy there. Our general feeling was that the schools that seemed to have a pre-professional bent were not what he was looking for, but then again, how do you figure that out? A lot of it is poring over websites, message boards like this, etc, trying to get a feel for it. Some names come up over and over, like Swarthmore, U Chicago, Reed. We knew from my D's experience at Wesleyan that it's very intellectual for its own sake, though I'm not sure we could have gleaned that otherwise. S really liked UMich (parents' alma mater). Obviously, some schools of it are pre-professinal schools, but the Honors program in the Lberal Arts College (LSA) seems (and was when I was there) very intellectually -centered. Some people will counsel LACs, but the one I started at was the opposite of intellectual in feel. </p>
<p>S was, overall, very taken with the Core Curriculum concept of Columbia, and its downplaying of majors in general. I'm not sure it's representative of Ivies (though others with more experience with them will know more than me.)</p>
<p>I think this may be one of those aras where stereotypes actually are somewhat helpful. Intellectual curiosity isn't necessarily a function of which schools have the lowest admit rates or the highests median SATs. I suspect that the threads on CC that suggest that schools like Chicago and Swarthmore offer a more reflective set of peers are probably accurate. And you really can get a sense of the prevailing mindset of a school by doing an overnight and listening to people's conversations, watching how they interact, seeing what activities are posted on various bulletin boards.</p>
<p>There may be a larger proportion of a certain style of intellectual curiosity at one school than at another that on the surface would seem to be quite similar on the surface. That is not to say that a school like Williams, for example, isn't full of intellectually curious kids, but they may wear their achievements differently from those at Swarthmore--I want to say more lightly but I fear that will offend people. But to my mind, the students who are happy at one might well not be happy at the other, or at least not as happy. Similarly, I don't think the Ivy League schools en masse necessarily provide that kind of setting either; some may, some may not. I imagine that at most large top 25 or top 50 universities (see all those posts about honors colleges) there is a large enough pool of highly achieving students that it will almost always be possible to find like-minded people, but that may not be the prevailing mood on campus, but rather an alternative one that you have to work to find. At a smaller school with smaller critical mass the possibilities of finding truly kindred spirits might be smaller. How schools present themselves at admissions sessions may provide a clue as well.</p>
<p>Several days ago a poster described her daughter as very smart and also a party girl. In high school there may not be so many of those, but at many selective colleges there is a great coming-together of lots of really good students many of whom also fit that description; it may take more than one semester for people just leaving the sometime more limited social world of high school to get below the surface and discover common interests that were initially obscured by surface differences. That said, though, it seems fair to say that what people say and what you observe on a visit probably are good indicators. Once you have visited a number of schools, especially smaller ones, you begin to get a sense of the subtler differences.</p>
<p>I agree with Garland - it's not a matter of LAC vs. University. Some of the LAC's we have visited with my daughter were clearly not intellectually-oriented. When the majority of students on tours seem to be more interested in how many grads get into prestigious law or business schools or about the party atmosphere on campus than they do with asking about specific professors or favorite classes, that's a bad sign, I think. At some schools, students seem so much more interested and engaged in what they are learning than at others - it comes across just talking with students on campus, even during summer visits! We also found that asking about how many hours students spend each day studying is telling: At one school (actually Garland's first college), the tour guide told us not to worry about studying, she herself never had to put in more than an hour or two a night, which she saw as a very good thing because it gave her plenty of time for sorority functions and her boyfriend. My daughter just about died when she heard that.</p>
<p>LOL carolyn.
That reminds me of a tour at I think Vassar when a prospective parent asked about drugs on campus. The tour guide replied " Oh you can get anything you want pretty easily!"
Well we knew that, but I don't think that answer was what the parents wanted to hear!</p>
<p>Lizschuo ~ I'm not certain I understand your original question. Sorry if I'm the slow dad on this thread. Are you using the concepts of intellectual curiousity and "undecided" regarding major interchangeably? Or are you equating intellectual curiousity with a desire for a broad-based college curriculum that explores many fields, not just one pre-selected narrow field leading to a specific career? I kind of get this impression, and I don't think think that these things are really equivalent. </p>
<p>My S for example, wants to understand (and research) artifical intelligence (a pretty darn specific technical subject). But he wonders about whether machine intelligence implies that he should be able to employ fuzzy logic to "argue" with a machine about such topics as the existence of God, voting (or not) for John Kerry, and whether men should or should not marry early, as a rule. Complicated questions, and not, generally, the subject of CS courses. Somehow, I see my S's goals as both intellectually curious and also pre-professional so I am back to wondering if you could elaborate on your original question...</p>
<p>Once again, I suspect I am the only one who doesn't quite "get" your original question. But I'd like to get it!</p>
<p>I'm another one who is not quite sure of the scope of the question.
For example, my S wants to be a research scientist. Does that make him a pre-professional, as opposed to someone who wants to be an M.D. or a lawyer? He has a very clear idea of what he wants to major in. Again, does that make him intellectually not curious, as opposed to a student who is undecided (a different situation from having an open mind or being intellectually adventurous, I would suggest).
I am not being defensive on behalf of my S, merely using him as a example of someone who has a clear idea of what he wants to do in college. Perhaps the question ought to be recast a bit so that it becomes clearer.</p>
<p>I interpret the OP's question to mean: which schools place the highest priority on intellectual curiousity versus other factors such as social scene, athletics or career placement?</p>
<p>I would think the answer might be found by looking at those schools that either don't have sports (except for intramurals or maybe lowest division teams) and don't have frats/sororities but also have high median SAT/ACTs. Places like Reed, St. Johns, Thomas Aquinas (though the SATs are not very high there), Chicago (though there are some Greeks and athletics there), Bard, Deep Springs, come to mind. </p>
<p>And Marite, nobody would ever say your son is not intellectually curious just because he has a specific major and career already selected, because the type of major and career he is entering is driven by intellectual curiousity above all else! :)</p>
<p>As I said, I was not being defensive. But I wonder what we mean by intellectually curious. There are people who are curious about a limited range of things, and some who are curious about a wider range. Is there a difference really between a student who is interested in how people lived in the Middle Ages and a student who is interested in finding a cure for a disease or making better chocolate (the avowed goal of the MIT chocolate society)? Can a someone have a practical bent and be considered intellectually curious? Just curious. :)
I'm also a bit leery about dismissing frats/sororities and sports as attracting the intellectually incurious.
I remember a book of memories of Oxford called "My Oxford," in which famous alums vied with each other recalling silly antics such as climbing over the walls when they came back to college after curfew. Precious little had to do with studying. Some of these alums were highly regarded intellectuals, but they continued the Oxford tradition of hiding their learning under a veneer of effortlessness. I think some of this can be found on many American college campuses.</p>
<p>No I'm not meaning to imply that a student that has a specific major or interest is not intellectually curious. I'm just trying to figure out what the broad indications of finding that kind of student might be. I have a very specific personal reason for asking the question but did not want to bring my son or his experience into the question. He feels like this aspect of fit is missing at his school and I'm just trying to evaluate why. He has a major and is somewhat interested in law school but I would consider him to be very intellectually curious. As Mackinaw said in his/her post being preprofessional doesn't exclude you from being intellectually curious. I do wonder if large numbers of very specific pre-professionals can influence the tone of a campus, though. I really don't want this to become a discussion specifically about Wash U and that is why I didn't mention it, but maybe having so many "pre-med" majors is different from having students with various majors who wants to go to med school.</p>
<p>Marite, I only mentioned my S being "undecided" as an example of someone who needs to choose a school that offers the ability to change his mind and still feel satisfied with his choice of school. I wasn't saying that students who are undecided are more intellectually curious than others. </p>
<p>When he began to focus his internships and time on art history and conservation, many suggested Williams. But, what if he had chosen Williams and later decided against art conservation.....would he still love Williams? </p>
<p>I don't think the "undecided" kid are more or less intellectually curious than those with intense interests.....and I would hate it if any of our kids were categorized as being more or less curious because of what box they checked as a major (at the age of 17).</p>
<p>"Can a someone have a practical bent and be considered intellectually curious?" </p>
<p>Marite, oh I definitely think so. Look at Edison, for one. </p>
<p>Maybe someone whose intellectual curiousity is fed mostly by the dream of making a lot of money someday (be it through business, science, medicine, writing, etc...) or by becoming famous would be the type of person the OP is wondering about. But I'm not sure how one could screen colleges for that.</p>
<p>Geez,
No wonder so many people lurk instead of post. I'm really not sure how to describe intellectually curious.I thought I wouldn't have to explain with this crowd. I'll have to get back to you on that.</p>