<p>Much of the difference in student experience between Harvard and MIT is easily explained away by student "entitlement". At Harvard, 35% of students come from private schools, 52% are top 5%ers in family income and receive no financial aid whatsoever, and only 6% are on Pell Grants (from bottom 35% of the population.)</p>
<p>At MIT, 28% of students are from private schools, only 28% are top 5%ers in family income and receive no financial aid (among the lowest of prestigious colleges in the country), and 12% (double Harvard's percentage) are Pell Grant recipients.</p>
<p>MIT is living proof that there are plenty of lower and middle income students that could easily do the work at Harvard if Harvard really cared to admit them. But then it wouldn't be Harvard!</p>
<p>They are both great schools. The differences, however, are huge, and they are differences that the universities do in fact emphasize.</p>
<p>If it could be quantified, and it really can't I suppose...then the difference might be how mental energy is expended by the very bright kids attending both schools (MIT/Harvard) . </p>
<p>Let's say that, using Coureur's definition, we are looking for whether a student activates prior knowledge to understand better as a measure of curiousity and intellect. From there, we move to Marite's assumption that there are different ways the depth of intellect manifests itself. For some people, discussion and reciprocal exchange of ideas is the mode of understanding. For others, it is the devotion of the energy to the untangling of the details of the ideas as they present themselves.</p>
<p>All effective learners use both strategies periodically depending on the type of information and the expectations. The best learners figure out when to use each to maximal benefit-- or if they are less skilled at one than the other, how to get others to help them when they need to use the other modality.</p>
<p>Beyond the "meritocratic" ratings, an analysis of the amount of time spent in these forms of "thinking" might also reveal differences between these 2 groups of superior students.</p>
<p>Then again, maybe they are less different as thinkers...and only differ in their passions/interests...and income..</p>
<p>Fun Fact Time! Having attended and worked for both MIT and Harvard, let me share a couple of fun facts.</p>
<p>MIT Professor of Chemistry Charles W. Eliot, a member of Harvard's Class of 1853, left MIT to become the 21st president of Harvard in 1869. He served for 40 years and frequently tried to get MIT to merge with Harvard. Needless to say, that never happened.</p>
<p>Also, the bridge spanning the Charles River over which Massachusetts Avenue runs is called the Harvard Bridge even though it's adjacent to MIT's campus.</p>
<p>Again...only from my experience... we are by no means a wealthy family...My S did not receive financial aid to either Harvard or MIT. Harvard, however, allowed us to defer our tuition payments using the infamous "academic management service" route where you pay a set amount monthly...so you are actually attending the university and paying as you go. MIT made it alot harder.You had to pay for tuiton, room and board up front and "borrow" the money from MIT where they (on top of that)charge you at that time 7or 8% interest. So....while my S was accepted to both schools...I believe Harvard made it easier for him to attend. And the 30% rate I spoke of (freshman drop outs) was told to me by a former MIT undergrad and now a very successful scientist/mathematician at IBM Watson Research Center in Yorktown Heights ( from many, many years ago) who said that thought stuck with him throughout his freshman year and terrified him into attending classes. I suppose it paid off. He did get his Ph. D. in mathematics or physics from MIT as well. I think many undergrads say that because it almost appears to be their "RED BADGE OF COURAGE."</p>
<p>Yes, I knew it was called the "Harvard Bridge" and mentioned that when I posted about the location of most of those fraternity houses. And if you don't think it is a harder life, try crossing that bridge for an 8AM class in mid-winter when it is glazed with ice!!!!! My S rolled out of his freshman dorm room into Harvard Yard his first year....and still had trouble making his 9am class!!!!</p>
<p>Little Mother,
I spent many winter days counting smoots so as to not face into the wind as I crossed the bridge!! </p>
<p>Sgiovinc1,
Your son must be an exceptional young man to have been accepted to both schools.
When I attended MIT, as an ill=prepared graduate of an academically mediocre HS, I found it to be very supportive academically, in fact. I knew people who left after freshman year, and honestly these were mostly kids who decided that they didn't want to work as hard as they knew they would have to, fair enough. Better to know that about yourself and make a proactive choice than to end up miserable a year later. As for the finances, well, they were daunting but I was able to get loans and work study. </p>
<p>Either way, your son had a fantastic choice, no?</p>
<p>Well, for what it is worth, in its 2002-2003 Common Data Set, MIT reported its first-year retention rate at 98%, which is HIGHER than Harvard's. Also, in 02-03 CDS, 6-year graduation rate from the 1996 Cohort was 91%. But I'm actually surprised by how high the figures are, as there is usually an inverse relationship between family income and school leaving (home situations in lower-income households are more often unstable, and may require attention from the family member who goes to the prestigious institution. Just another reason why some of the data purportedly indicating school quality may simply be reflecting entitlement status.)</p>
<p>This very successful scientist/mathematician either doesn't know what he is talking about, or MIT has changed radically since then (which I doubt).</p>
<p>I think MIT has learned alot about the pressure cooker atmosphere it once took pride in
advertising. What with the rate of suicide now being broadcast, parents are becoming more discerning about what kind of lives they want their children to be subjected to. For in those days.....$320000/yr, I wanted my S to have a more comfortable life...along with fine academics and a scholarly student body. I didn't want him to choose a frat lifestyle(which they WERE pushing) and cross a wickedly cold and brutal bridge in the winter when he could slide across Harvard Yard to his first class. What did disturb him was the number of gawkers who came to visit the campus on tours. He felt he was living in a museum and he was one of the exhibits. I told him to post a small sign on his back..."Yes, I really am a Harvard student and I don't bite."</p>
<p>According to our MIT tour guide the bridge is so named because back when the bridge was first being designed (19th century?), it was a partnership between Harvard and MIT engineering departments. But the MIT guys didn't like Harvard's design and pulled out of the project saying they wanted nothing to do with that bridge. Harvard pressed on without them. A few months after it was completed the bridge collapsed, and MIT was brought in to clean up the mess and build a new bridge. They named it the Harvard bridge to perpetually remind the Harvard boys of their folly.</p>
<p>My daughters school is enrolled in the Tuition management services plan
For the money that her finaid package doesn't cover, we enroll in the plan each year for the remainde for a flat $60. fee no interest.
Then we make payments over 9 or 10 months to TMS and they pay the school.
WHen her finaid was adjusted when our income was reduced, the monthly payments were promptly adjusted as well. You also can pay ahead of time, but it is nice to have it spread out every month instead of by semester.
I don't think MIT is enrolled, but other financial services may be used at other schools
<a href="http://www.finaid.org/otheraid/tuition.phtml%5B/url%5D">http://www.finaid.org/otheraid/tuition.phtml</a></p>
<p>Marlgirl -- If you're still on here, you might look at the Structured Liberal Education (SLE) option at Stanford. It's a residential Great Books type program that you can select for freshman year and would certainly plunge you into a group of students who like to live and breathe ideas. On the other hand, you might explore whether SLE isolates students from the mainstream social life of a first year student, which could also give you some information about what kind of fit Stanford would be for you.</p>
<p>Yes, emerald...that is the plan we used for our HArvard son. and no, at that time MIT was not a member and now I guess still isn't....so you see, I am not sure that Harvard doesn't try to accommodate those that are "needy." I still don't think Harvard lets those in just on entitlement!! I resent that. In NO way would we say we were a family of "entitlement." That disturbs me that MIT won't give you a break on tuition payment schedules. That rubbed me the wrong way and I felt it was "greedy"....just my take.</p>
<p>Sorry, Sgiovinc1, but in addition to an MIT degree, you get a built in detector that helps you to look at patterns and detect discrepancies and variations(not really, but hey- why not). </p>
<p>I will just come out and say what I am thinking and leave it at that. I mean no insult, but I have watched your posts for a while.....Your son and you chose Harvard for the reasons you describe above (and hopefully a few others that are even more substantive). Your son graduated in 4 years, when he could have done so in 3, because Harvard offers such tremendous diversity of learning opportunities. Your son is brilliant, but not meaningfully employed or pursuing an academic path with a clear outcome. While you celebrate his intellectuality and need to learn, you are worried about him, understandably, especially after you struggled to spend $32,000/year. On some level I think you may be struggling to rationalize why he didn't go to MIT after all- really I do... </p>
<p>If it is any consolation, I am sure there are brilliant MIT graduates whose parents are worried about them because they are underemployed/focused on apparent esoterica/etc...too...and maybe they wonder why their child didn't go to....</p>
<p>I applaud those who take non-linear paths to happiness and success if that is what they are meant to do. If this is true for your son, there is undoubtedly something special ahead of him...</p>
<p>Again, I mean no insult. By nature I am driven to understand people and their behavior, and to comment on it (some of the time..)</p>
<p>Re MIT: We were told on our tour that 60% of male students join fraternities. This was a turn-off for our son, who didn't apply (though there were other reasons as well) but when I told this to a friend the response was: "a fraternity at MIT is not like a fraternity somewhere else." I leave this to others to debate.</p>
<p>Re curiosity: The distinction between those who only want to know what they'll be tested on and those who want to go on learning more, whether or not it will be on the test, seems a good one to me. Of course, a student might act one way in one class, and another way in a different class. Not every subject sparks the interest of even the most curious learner. But reading about kids pursuing math problems and Gaelic, I was reminded of the time my son was given ten Mayan numbers as part of a unit in history and went ahead and learned the whole Mayan number system so he could do problems in it. On the other hand, I can safely venture that he will never pick up another French book as long as he lives.</p>
<p>Robyrm..you know there is more to this story than meets the eye. I'll tell you why part of me loathes MIT..my S and a friend found a fellow HARvard student..then a grad student in EE. They started a company together...my son patented a 3-dimensional display at the age of 23 yrs. He wanted to leave H in his junior yr because he found this pet project. I encouraged him to stay and he subsequently took grad classes at H in computer graphics. Anyway, after two more patents later, new employees were added on board...two from MIT. While he had been there the longest and was one of the principal developers of the 3-d computer monitor, he was constantly hassled by the MIT kids. Oh...you didn't go to MIT?? How could you be as knowledgeable as us??? Made my son soooo mad. He was hurt, resented them, and in the long run left the flegling company and its MIT engineers who simply stuck it to him every day........He really never has recovered......in spite of my constantly encouraging him to apply for grad school there...which was his ultimate goal..he has no real desire and has moved on to studying Gaelic for fun...after learning Japanese...and who knows what after that...so it was a bad experience in the workplace...those feelings of competition and animosity linger on I'm sorry to say....and while all may be brilliant, as along as there is this fierce competition, it can be very destructive to the faint of heart and the not so arrogant.</p>
<p>"any consolation, I am sure there are brilliant MIT graduates whose parents are worried about them because they are underemployed/focused on apparent esoterica/etc...too...and maybe they wonder why their child didn't go to...."</p>
<p>LOL! By the time mine's finished, she'll be totally unemployable (and, frankly, that's perfectly okay with me....)</p>
<p>Sgiovinc1-- I am not a licensed mental health professional but your story about your son scares me. If he hasn't, please encourage him to seek counseling. The world is filled with smart people who face hostility or challenges in the work place; most of them bounce back, a few are either depressed or too emotionally fragile to recover. Your son sounds like an absolute treasure and his intellect is a gift to humanity, but what might seem to you like a person with no direction or interest in making money, might actually be someone suffering from clinical depression.</p>
<p>The world is filled with kind, loving MIT graduates; surely you can see that your anger at the entire school is irrational. I think it's fantastic that your son found his niche at Harvard... now he may need you to help him find his niche now that the undergrad phase of his life is over.</p>
<p>Sgiovinc1.
I am so sorry that this happened to your son and I am sure it worries you greatly. Chances are, he has several more great ideas/inventions in him and he just needs to meet like-minded people whom he feels he can trust to move on. Maybe he just needs to put distance between him and the experience, maybe there is more to it as Blossom describes. </p>
<p>Tenacity can be hard to come by when you feel you have been burned, but hopefully he can rebound and continue to realize his full potential.</p>