<p>neato: lol. :-)</p>
<p>Tristan2 - I would love to hear more of your thoughts on why you think SPS is second to none academically. It’s one of several schools my son is applying to, so would love to have more color. Thnaks!</p>
<p>Hi chico,</p>
<p>I have a set of facts that informs my own assessment, but more importantly I can say that SADGE are academically equivalent. Most attempts to differentiate on academic grounds are splitting hairs and distract a candidate from actual differences in other areas worth considering.</p>
<p>(I suppose if your son is deeply interested in the Classics, that could give a slight academic edge to St Paul’s or Groton…but other important factors would need to be weighed.)</p>
<p>For example, there is a dialog in this thread on sports – that’s an example of a genuine difference between schools – PG vs. non-PG.</p>
<p>After visiting, your son will have an opinion on the places that resonate with his heart. That may be as important as anything, although subject to change and not an overriding indicator.</p>
<p>I think you are a bit optimistic about the innocence of the ISL schools and recruiting based on athletic ability. Looking at St Paul’s current Varsity Boy’s Hockey roster, 2 seniors have double repeated (1990 birth year) and 4 juniors have double repeated (1991 birth year). Another 14 players on the roster have repeated a year. Only one player on the 21 player roster is age appropriate for their grade. I doubt that the repeat percentage for the hockey team mirrors the overall percentage for St Paul. Hard to stand on any moral high ground with these types of numbers and criticize schools that admit PG’s.</p>
<p>Exeter123, I think you make a very useful observation.</p>
<p>“[On the St. Paul’s hockey team] Only one player on the 21 player roster is age appropriate for their grade.” This is a sad comment on the situation and gets to the heart of the matter!</p>
<p>My view is that St Paul’s has corrupted themselves in this way, in their effort to compete with PG schools. I’d like to see them stay true to their core ideals across everything that they do.</p>
<p>I believe St. Paul’s is the only ISL that also competes in non-ISL PG leagues for certain sports.</p>
<p>My understanding is that certain leagues have rules against players over 19. That should filter out some senior double repeats once such a player turns 19.</p>
<p>Tristan2’s logic isn’t just splitting hairs, it’s splitting the individual cells. He admits that repeating can appear the same as a PG year from an athletic perspective. He also admits that some repeats are for athletic reasons, and that some PGs are not. But he chooses to make a distinction between “individuals choosing to repeat” and an “institutionally sanctioned” PG year. </p>
<p>Taking a PG year is an individual choice as well. Furthermore, the schools that accept repeats are, in fact, sanctioning the activity. They could easily adopt rules that say a student can only play through the end of the academic year that includes their 18th birthday - or only through the 12th academic year after they entered first grade. Looking the other way while individuals make the choice (never, I’m sure, with the consent or even recommendation of the coaching staff) to gain an athletic competitive advantage is arguably worse than a situation where PGs are clearly identified and, in many cases, governed by roster limits for competitive balance.</p>
<p>Edit: I see Tristan’s new response above now talks about limits on “double repeats.” So, does that mean that “single repeats” are sanctioned?</p>
<p>Not sure where Exeter123 is getting his info from. Easily about 2/3 of the hockey guys are repeats but not double repeats. You need to take birth month into consideration.</p>
<p>It’s worth reading through Padre’s gobbledygook, where he pretends not to understand difference in degree, to find a pearl.</p>
<p>Concur with Padre’s comment: “Looking the other way while…[repeaters] make the choice…to gain an athletic competitive advantage is arguably worse than a situation where PGs are clearly identified and, in many cases, governed by roster limits for competitive balance.” I do like how certain PG leagues openly track and specifically limit the number of PGs on a team. All else being equal, disclosed and managed is better than undisclosed and unmanaged.</p>
<p>The hypothesis is that PG schools have a significantly higher percentage of over-age players vs. non-PG schools. One potential cause is that PG schools more aggressively sanction, attract, and seek over-age players.</p>
<p>To prove or disprove the hypothesis, we need the facts.</p>
<p>St. Paul’s hockey team is an interesting data point, but potentially skewed to the extreme because I believe they are the only ISL school that has decided to compete against non-ISL PG teams for certain sports.</p>
<p>For each school and sport, it would be good to get the rudimentary facts for this academic year:
- Number of players on each varsity roster born before September 1, 1990.
- Total number of players on each varsity roster.</p>
<p>Would love to see this data for the top dozen boarding schools, let’s say: SADGE, Milton, Hotchkiss, Lawrenceville, Middlesex, Choate, Cate, and St. Andrew’s. Half larger PG academies and half smaller non-PG schools.</p>
<p>Post data here if you happen to have some of it.</p>
<p>Actually, I’m amused by people that find differences in degree when the net result is the same. It seems to be a distinction of convenience for those with a predetermined position. If individuals decide to repeat a year “primarily for academic reasons” (the assumption that serves as the linchpin to Tristan’s differences in degree), then the answer is simply to let them have 13 years of schooling but terminate athletic eligibility at the end of their 12th year to ensure athletic fairness. Why threaten the school’s academic and athletic integrity by giving such students an extra athletic benefit?</p>
<p>You guys have to realize that schools, although most of them are really cuthroat on academics, they want to have great athletic teams too. They want their teams to win championships and go on to play in college or even pro. If the school has PGs that happen to come to the school to get more credit and to get into a Div 1 college, then the schools usually like to use them to their advantage. When other schools realize that the hockey star is a PG, then maybe they will issue policy that allows PGs into the school. If schools don’t feel like allowing them, then that is that individuals school’s problem ,but they need to realize that many schools want to win and will use any available rescource to do so.</p>
<p>A member here kindly pointed me to a data source to examine the extent of over age players in boarding school sports.</p>
<p>Rosters for the 2008-09 hockey season are available for free from the “US Hockey Report” website (ushr.com).</p>
<p>Public school districts tend to use “September 1” of a certain birth year as the cutoff date for when a student can begin Kindergarten.</p>
<p>For last academic year’s 2008-09 roster, “over-age” players are as those born before September 1, 1990.</p>
<p>To my way of looking at things, an excessive level of over-age players is 20% or more. 0% is ideal.</p>
<p>Top 10 boarding schools, sorted with largest offenders at top.</p>
<p>School: # over-age; % over-age
Hotchkiss*<em>: 10; 38%
Choate</em>: 8; 38%
Andover*: 8; 36%
Deerfield: 8; 35%
St. Paul’s: 6; 30%
Middlesex: 6; 29%
Exeter: 4; 18%
Groton: 2; 11%</p>
<ul>
<li>Milton: ?<br></li>
<li>Lawrenceville: ?<br></li>
</ul>
<p>Notes:
**Hotchkiss had 2 players two years over-age.
*Choate and Andover each had 1 player two years over-age.
- Milton and Lawrenceville published rosters but withheld dates of birth. Are they hiding something?</p>
<p>Link to Hotchkiss data: [US</a> Hockey Report || Hotchkiss Hockey || 2008-2009 Boys Team Roster](<a href=“Dana Hall Girls Hockey Roster 2008-09”>Dana Hall Girls Hockey Roster 2008-09)</p>
<p>Also looked at several other boarding schools outside of the ‘top 10.’ Largest offenders found are Loomis and Tabor with 45% and 43% over-age roster, respectively.</p>
<p>A multi-year comprehensive data set of the top 30 boarding schools across all sports would have been nice, but this will do for a quick peek into perhaps the marquee sport in private school athletics.</p>
<p>As a reminder, my hypothesis is: PG schools have a significantly higher percentage of over-age players vs. non-PG schools.</p>
<p>Not enough data to be certain, but based on the limited data set (one season, one sport), **it appears my hypothesis may prove to be false.</p>
<p>For the top boarding schools, it looks like most (but not all) non-PG schools are just as bad as PG schools in terms of excessive over-age players.**</p>
<p>Parents and players who share this concern will want to find the schools, like Groton, that do not have an excessive level of over-age players.</p>
<p>…schools want to win and will use any available resource to do so. </p>
<p>I wonder whether that veers so much off the “high ground” as to be less than a great example for the students at those schools. At the pragmatic level, I seem to recall that at least one of the states in which I’ve lived had rules prohibiting public school athletic participation for anyone older than 19 - to protect kids 19 and under, many of whom are still not physically mature. I dunno, though… maybe I’m being a dinosaur about this too?</p>
<p>^^to add to Mainer’s point: under MIAA rules (Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association) you can only play for 4 years regardless if you stay back a grade. though this for public schools and schools participating in MIAA sanctioned competition not BS…</p>
<p>honestly i am currently undergoing this process right now, although with soccer. i chose to commit to an ISL school because they do not have PGs although i have had not my starting place taken from me but i feel that there is really no difference. the ISL in soccer is a lot stronger overall than the founder’s league teams and the other assorted PG schools. Most of the recruited athletes are repeats the coach of the school said that i and one other person were the only players who were not going to repeat a grade. I look at repeats this way if they want a good education and acceptance into a better college. they use their athletic skills to obtain it why should only straight A students get a great preparatory education and not kids who want it but do not have the grades. so they use it as a bargaining tool, you let me in ill help you win, and in return you’ll help me get into a good college. shouldn’t this be encouraged ? all they want is a good education so why can’t they have one in return for their services. people are complaining about fairness and such. well is it fair to deny these kids a amazing academic experience i think not.</p>
<p>Exeter. It’s the first school I’ve heard of and the only school I’ve researched. Also I went to summer school there so I’m hooked. There’s no way I could become an Andover smurf now!</p>
<p>…well is it fair to deny these kids a amazing academic experience?</p>
<p>For the sake of discussion, may I turn that question around? Is it “fair” to compromise the overall quality of Harkness table discussions, perhaps negatively impacting many students, simply to improve the school’s chances of winning a few athletic contests? </p>
<p>…well is it fair to deny these kids a amazing academic experience?</p>
<p>Another way to look at it? Every recruited or preferentially admitted athlete is taking a spot away from a more academically talented, more academically disciplined student. Is that fair? I don’t know. I don’t have the answers. However, I’d love to hear other points of view.</p>
<p>Hmmm, I go to SPS, and I don’t care about the age of the hockey players. There are kids that have a greater chance of getting into boarding school because they live in Montana instead of Connecticut. There are kids who get accepted over a more academically disciplined student just because they’re good at the saxophone, and the school just happens to need a player. The people accepted are chosen because they have something to contribute to the school, whether it’s in academics, music, extracurriculars, athletics, diversity, etc. SPS needs good hockey players, so they accept kids who are repeats or double repeats. The Harkness table discussions don’t suffer~</p>
<p>im not suggesting that the student isn’t smart or has the potential to be smart i was only pointing out that if the athletes didn’t have As and are in no way in danger of failing out of school. why not foster intellectual athletes who have been over-looked because they play sports. and if you are going to comment on degrading the Harkness table discussions then i dont think the athletes are the problem who are almost all have FA its the legacies, and kids who have buildings named after relatives at school. Because they do not know their limits. and if you take all of these kids away and just left academics who aren’t social, who have no interest in sports. then what do you have a very very very very boring place. and after all isn’t the reason why you went to boarding school is to escape from the boredom of public high school. that is what makes boarding great the diversity, the different types of people all coming together to be given the opportunity to learn. </p>
<p>and to address the academically talented perhaps or a grind, personally i would much rather have a kid who gets lower grades but is more eloquent and intelligent than someone who works and works and works but puts in no intellectual value in class.</p>
<p>Thanks, goldilon - excellent thoughts!</p>
<p>
There is a novel (“Admissions”?) written by a former Princeton application reader. In the novel, there’s an Oxford professor visiting Princeton. She is very critical about the way how the top US colleges choose their students. She said in Oxford and other UK colleges, academic performance and scholastic aptitude are about the only thing they look at in an applicant. They don’t even ask the student to list his extracurricular activities if they are not related to his academics. Does it make Oxford a boring place? No, she said. We have clubs, and orchestra, and we have students play balls. They are probably not playing as well as professionals, but why should they? They are students in an academic institute. </p>
<p>It’s been a while so there may be things inaccurate in my account, but this is another point of view ‘per your request’.</p>