<p>I'm glad I could help in some small way. And Worknprogress -- not to worry, I have to be a bit thick-skinned - I do always take the time to respond to critics because I'd say MOST of the time, they have major misconceptions about what I do. As I said, I work with a WIDE variety of families and students, not just super affluent kids, and I also offer a wide variety of services at different price points. Though I appreciated the press attention, there were many other things I wished they'd put in the article, but that's how it goes. but I don't like people to think I'm an arrogant money grubber - that could not be farther from the truth and I do tons of public outreach through my books, personal attention to every email/phone call, etc... I think I made clear in the above commentary that I'm hardly from a hedge fund family and went through very tough times myself to get where I am and I love my job - I spent all day, every day working with kids on their writing, planning, organization, reading, vocabulary, etc... - I started out as an English and Spanish teacher and in many ways, I feel like I spend a lot of my time doing scholarly/teacher-related tasks and I'm grateful for that.</p>
<p>xiggi raises some valid perspectives. There is a tendency to dichotomize those who "earned" their college admissions "honestly" and those who "bought and paid for" them. But is there a clear demarcation between the black and the white? </p>
<p>What of the students whose parents are very savvy on these matters (via cc or whatever source), who have top-notch GCs at their schools (whether public or private)? Is their process "purer" than those who engage paid counselor services? </p>
<p>Do we think it's okay to pay $900-1800 (the going rate for some quite ineffectual services I have seen) for a season of private counseling come junior summer through senior fall, with help in identifying The List, prodding to get those essays done, review of the application package for some spit and polish? Do we draw the line at paid vs. unpaid assistance, or do we draw it at some $$ figure that we think begins to smack of ugly Excess?</p>
<p>I'm one who has been quite quick to sneer at the highly paid services, myself. So I am not preaching holier than thou here.</p>
<p>I <em>do</em> think I might have an insight into why the negative reaction. And that is because I think we see (right or wrong) the elite college admissions playing field as one that is a version of a Zero Sum Game. That kid gets in... mine doesn't.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Marite: I agree with you that the US is missing the boat, particularly in math and science education. But that's not quite the same thing as choosing things in Middle School for their appearance.
[/quote]
I have friends (MD and Phd) who I think have made many decisions about schooling that will have long term consequences. Their younger son was bored to death in middle school in math, but they wouldn't consider having him skip a grade like we did for our older son. He's also really good at science, but they didn't put him in the Physics B class with the rest of the top kids. Maybe an outside opinion would have assured him that in his case he could do more advanced work and still have a childhood.</p>
<p>I must say I consider myself lucky to have had a child who found his passion early and was single-minded in pursuing it. He pulled me, I never had to push him.</p>
<p>I still wonder how these kinds of services (from the $800 SAT prep course to the $40,000 private counselor) are perceived by the students themselves, and whether it has an effect on their feeling of adequacy/ability to keep up at the colleges they attend.</p>
<p>I would be personally stung by the article if I were MH. On the other hand, for every 10 readers who denounce the practice (and could not afford the full package), there's one with $40,000 in spare cash who wasn't aware they could enlist such a service. BW has a different readership from CC.</p>
<p>I guess I directed my dismay at the wrong target, Michelle. It worries me when PARENTS are so focused on a specific college and career for their kids that they are stressing about it from pre-school age or even before. And I do think it's great if you or CC or anyone can get them to widen their focus, because even if HYP were able to accept everyone, they would not be the happiest places for every kid to be, just as investment banking is not what everyone would be happiest doing.</p>
<p>Mathmom:</p>
<p>We also had a kid who knew what he wanted and pulled us. But neither he nor we knew what was possible. We were lucky there were a few precedents (and we now have set some ourselves), a few trailblazers and lots of people who could give us informed advice and even support. Some of that support was proffered by perfect strangers over the internet. That we did not pay a dime for that support or advice is neither here nor there. We were lucky: lucky in our child, lucky in the kind of advice we received and the level of support S was given.</p>
<p>Good points, bethievt and marite. When I was considering hiring a consultant for my S's process (which he is now in the midst of), a friend of a friend who has been the college counselor at several well-known private high schools asked, "What does [your son] want?" She sees many parents who are driving the process for themselves, not for their kids. (I'm not saying this is the norm, but it happens, more in some geographic areas than others.)</p>
<p>Having said that, I'll add my two cents' worth about my concern over parents and counselors (paid or school) packaging kids. My S won't be packaged. He has used me, his counselor, teachers, relatives, and friends' parents as his informal advisers by benefiting from their experience with the process--but he's done the work himself. He and I have discussed, brainstormed, consulted, and commiserated, but I will be restraining myself mightily today as he clicks "send" on the application to his #1 choice! (At least I hope it will be today, but that's a subject for another thread.) Do I worry that he'll be at a disadvantage because he isn't packaged? Yup, it's always in the back of my mind.</p>
<p>On a related subject: I am promising myself that my first empty-nester volunteer job is going to be with an organization that preps inner-city kids for college applications. Good for you, Michelle, for working with KIPP Academy students.</p>
<p>I will say on marite's behalf that she has been a trailblazer for my family, and for that I am grateful. There is more than one path open to any child, even a child with an early profile of strong interest in a particular subject, but many parents hear about NONE of those paths through school channels. Parents who share their experiences in online discussion help other parents consider the possibilities open to their younger children.</p>
<p>I'm not an admissions person, but if I were, I think I'd respond to the freshness of a non-packaged application and I'd have to guess that the really successful college counselors find a way to make the kid look unpackaged, but I figure I saved a lot of money avoiding the middleman.</p>
<p>I think a lot of the packaging comes into play for HYPSM type schools, more so than the LACs that your son applied to, Bethie. As I recall, your son had great stats and ECs ... which, being a male from Vermont, was favorable for the excellent schools that he applied to. That being said, of course he might have done equally well with top universities as well. I could not afford to have my kids professionally packaged and would not have done so even if I could. A lot of the good advice on CC helped me help my kids, as it probably did for many of us CC readers. Actually, I think it was just the years of reading before they applied which gave us a good sense of how to best approach their applications. Reading books like The Gatekeepers was beneficial too. Then again, my kids' school was no Harvard-Westlake (or whatever that school was called) and there were no Wesleyan admissions officers tracking my kids through their public high school. Even so, my son was accepted to Wesleyan but chose not to attend.</p>
<p>A lot of it depends on where you live and who your peers are. In many suburban communities, it is totally the norm to provide your child with SAT tutoring, whether it's needed or not. That, however, is a lot cheaper than $40,000.</p>
<p>And, as I've said before ... my kids never did anything to remotely package themselves during their summers. They worked hard at their academics all year long and had fun at (non-specialty) camps over their summers. In addition, my daughter gave up her "unique" instrument the year she began high school against everyone's advice. She didn't want to be pulled out of classes for lessons anymore. It didn't end up mattering at all; she never even put on her application that she had played the instrument.</p>
<p>Did anyone else hear this interview?
See link at <a href="http://www.here-now.org/shows/2007/10/20071030_2.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.here-now.org/shows/2007/10/20071030_2.asp</a> to hear the interview. The CC forum is referred to a couple of times early in the interview. </p>
<p>She is a very fast talker.</p>
<p>One interesting tidbit:</p>
<p>Michele talks about the "15%" of her clients who qualify for "full financial aid" at top Ivies. She says that some families pay her a $25,000 fee but then get "full financial aid" at Yale so the investment in her more than pays off. Do these people have all cash businesses with unreported earnings such that they can hand over that much money to a college consultant yet qualify for that much FA? Something is odd there IMO. Perhaps the IRS should look into this. ;)</p>
<p>Anyone else who listens to this, could you let me know if I heard that right? (I even replayed the interview to make sure I had followed what she said.) Yale's reaction would be interesting IMO.</p>
<p>It would definitely be odd to have an EFC of zero (that's what a lot of people are going to interpret "full financial aid" to mean) and yet have cash in hand to pay $25,000 for admission counseling. Anyway, $25,000 for admission counseling is more than one strictly needs to pay. College Confidential of course offers its free forums, for which I am grateful, and to the best of my knowledge and belief, none of College Confidential's paid services are that expensive.</p>
<p>That would be totally disgusting if her paying clients are getting full aid from the Ivies themselves (maybe they're getting outside $$$?). Or she does some pro bono work? Or maybe full financial aid means the families pay no more than the calculated EFC on the FAFSA/CSS? My office is near a local high-powered college consultant (NOT MH) and it is amusing to see the very anxious teenagers trying to park their $50,000 SUV's.</p>
<p>I was wondering if some people are so gung ho about geeting to these top schools because they are need-blind admissions.</p>
<p>
Isn't it possible that Michele is referring to the pro bono work she does?</p>
<p>^^^^ That would make sense, BUT it is not what I heard in the interview. What I believe I heard is her saying that some families pay her $25,000 but the return is well worth it as they get "full financial aid" from schools such as Yale. I believe she might have mentioned some families going without a car to pay her fee. She did say she allows payments to be spread out over time - perhaps 25% up front and the rest in monthly installments.</p>
<p>Anyone else who has listened to the interview on the link in post #51 above, I would be very interested if you heard the same thing. If you heard differently, I would appreciate being corrected.</p>
<p>The interview is not that long. Again, it is at
<a href="http://www.here-now.org/shows/2007/10/20071030_2.asp%5B/url%5D">http://www.here-now.org/shows/2007/10/20071030_2.asp</a>
It was aired on the "Here and Now" radio show on NPR on 10/30/07.</p>
<p>I listened & she said that these families may not drive a car, but they save to get an admissions counselor because education is a high priority.</p>
<p>In my town, there is an immigrant Asian family packed into a one bedroom apartment who send their kids to a $20,000+ elementary school. The parents both work, & I imagine they get some financial aid, but they are putting every last penny into education. And yes, you can't discount the large number of "off the books" jobs that people are engaged in which allow them to qualify for financial aid. I personally would never live like them, even though my family greatly values education. We also value civilized living conditions & consider obeying the law to be morrally correct. Different strokes for different folks.</p>
<p>I'm sure there are plenty of families like this, and Ms. Hernandez is happy to take their money.</p>
<p>Cross posted, Jyber.</p>
<p>Thanks, StickerShock, for the feedback. Glad to confirm that I did not dream it up. </p>
<p>We concur both in what M.H. said and in our reactions.</p>
<p>Maybe it is clever financial aid planning - if the kid has $40,000 in a custodial account in 9th grade, spend it on a college counselor that year and THEN when he gets into Yale, zero assets? That is really upsetting that families would go without a car (unless it's a teenager's car) for this goal...imagine how guilty kid would feel if he flunks out.</p>
<p>I haven't listened to the interview - - but I doubt that "full finaid" means the family pays $0. More likely, as stated in post #53, the family pays only its EFC - - which can still be quite a bargain, and worth $6K/yr (the equiv of MH's $25K fee over the 4 yrs of college).</p>
<p>Also, when I consider the number of families that spend $5-6K to send their kids to 4-6wk summer "community service" prgms, $25K for hundreds of hrs of college counseling is not only a wise expenditure, but a real bargain.</p>