<p>Eww</p>
<p>I guess it's like politicians listening to lobbyists, but I don't like it.</p>
<p>
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And while after putting lipstick on a pig you still have a pig - - with the lipstick you (argu) have prettier pig and if it's a beauty contest for pigs . . . . movement at the margins can be important.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>LOL. Marginal differences are the differences that matter most in setting prices.</p>
<p>It seems like a call from a hired private consultant to the admissions office is like a call from mom or dad....you'd wonder why the kid isn't calling.</p>
<p>Most kids are too busy with school. Especially for colleges in the East Coast for a West Coast kid. You have to get up at 6:00 A.M to call. Mine does not get home until 10:00 P.M sometimes.</p>
<p>" . . . I guess I view the application process as just that -- a process which is really the beginning of separation from mom and dad."</p>
<p>So, so true. The ones I feel most sorry for are not our own kids who don't have the consultants but the kids who do. What lousy families they have grown up in, what possible relationship can they have with their parents? It's as if these parents just see their kids as pets -- hire a dog walker! Ugh. If top schools let this type of "packaged" kid in, then I really, really don't want to spend $200k to send mine there. And what about the oath the applicants sign that the work in the application is their own? Do any of the journalists covering this sad story ever think to ask about that?</p>
<p>Actually, this whole game of college admissions has me questioning what is driving us - why are parents so intensely worried about where their kids go to college? I think we all know life can be unpredictable and hard and we just want to help our kids grab hold of the brass ring that will lift them above the fray. But if we stop and think, we all know that no pedigree from any school is going to do that. Our kids are just plain going to have get out there and compete and contribute to get ahead. HYP might be a slight advantage but if they don't actually "do" something, it really won't matter.</p>
<p>Sorry to ramble. Only through October and I've just had it with this whole senior year thing. Wake me up when it's over!</p>
<p>It's possible that adcoms and consultants develop relationships. If the adcom wants consultant to funnel best students its way perhaps it is willing to take a call on behalf of counselee. Guidance counselors from feeder schools have this kind of influence.</p>
<p>(To be clear this was not our life.)</p>
<p>Mammall, you took the words right out of my mouth.</p>
<p>The whole thing is a racket.</p>
<p>
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I am convinced that there are consultants who call schools. I have actual anecdotal evidence of such! So, I don't really care whether the schools SAY they don't like to talk to consultants...the fact is...they do!
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</p>
<p>And according to books such as Toor's Duke admission saga or the Gatekeepers, there are also plenty of high school counselors who make the phone calls to push candidates or influence wait lists.** </p>
<p>Is a world where a few officials at a few "big name" high schools have the power to influence decisions really better? Should we hope for a return of the good ol' days when the good ol' boys ruled the process? </p>
<p>Is there a real difference between spending some money with a private consultant or spending it via years of tuition at a tony academy where the consultants come for "free?" For some reason, I thought that the buzzwords of 2007 were fairness and transparency? </p>
<p>** Of course, one is free to believe if such calls do really influence admission decisions. Fwiw, I happen to think that the influence of guidance counselors is entirely mythical and built on ego-boosting and fabricated tales.</p>
<p>
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The whole thing is a racket.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But is it not a racket one does NOT have to be victimized by? And, for that matter, how much do we KNOW if the racket is a reality or a product of our ... imagination? Should we not define what a racket is and who the racketeers are? </p>
<p>The last time I checked nobody was forced to purchase a SAT prep book or hire a consultant. There are plenty of rackets in education, but not many fall in the realm of the private sector.</p>
<p>I doubt guidance counselors have much influence; the fact is that top prep schools and public schools have a lot of desirable candidates so of course those guidance counselors have built relationships with top schools. A high school guidance counselor may be able to convey useful reliable information to a college that a private counselor wouldn't. For instance, if an otherwise outstanding applicant has a C in French the high school counselor may explain that the French teacher in that school gives Cs to almost everyone. Or that the French teacher is crazy and currently being forced into retirement. That wouldn't have as much weight coming from the private counselor.</p>
<p>Here's a funny story I read once (I wish I could remember where, so I could give credit to my source) about a private college admission counselor. This "counselor" insinuated that he had an in with a senior admission officer at Brown. He said to clients, "You know, a lot of outstanding students apply to Brown, so I can't be sure of the results of every case, but if you hire me, I'll put in a good word for your child with the admission committee." The counselor offered each client a money-back guarantee: if the child wasn't admitted to Brown, the parents got a full refund. Then the counselor proceeded to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. (No, he didn't even make a phone call to anyone at Brown.) Some kids got into Brown. He cashed their parents' checks. Some kids didn't get into Brown. He returned their checks, unnegotiated. That's a pretty good rate of pay for the amount of work he actually did.</p>
<p>What I think is remarkable are the parents on here who balk at a consultant, yet don't see the gaming in the system all the way through. From baby-games and early music to program the mind, to the choice of private school, or selecting neighborhoods with the best public schools, or studying the selectivity ratings for prestige (regardless of difference in actual education), tutors, practicing SAT, sending kids to specialized summer programs, handing out on here for tips, coaching kids to take the 'right ECs', volunteer work, and all that AP baloney. </p>
<p>The WHOLE THING is a game! </p>
<p>There are many brilliant and amazing students out there. But without most of the above and more, the vast majority of those brilliant and amazing kids would not stand a chance. It's why kids of minority groups and from poor neighborhoods are far far far less likely to even apply to elite schools than rich kids from the burbs (it is not because the former kids are genetically inferior in IQ or talent).</p>
<p>The line between 'genuine' and instrumental is a fine one.</p>
<p>I have a feeling that the parents indignant by the idea of an MH or other consultant helping other people's children is similar to the feelings an inner city parent would feel just reading this board. The sense that their child has so much potential but not the 'leg up' that most of the kids have on this board. Basically the feeling that it just is not fair. SAT alone is NOT an IQ test but tests your fortunate education, your experience with tests, and often your practicing and coaching. Not everyone has access to those things. </p>
<p>The best correlate of SATs is SES and its not a surprise.</p>
<p>
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It's why kids of minority groups and from poor neighborhoods are far far far less likely to even apply to elite schools than rich kids from the burbs (it is not because the former kids are genetically inferior in IQ or talent).
[/quote]
This is not exactly true. There are many Asian kids from very poor families, with parents who hardly speak English and can not help the kids academically, that do very well at school and on those tests without expensive tutors and coaches. A lot depends on cultural attitude towards education, expectations, etc.
There is a lot of talk on these forums about the pressure put on the kids by stereotypical Asian parents, but not all of it is bad...</p>
<p>From Stanford website
[quote]
One question we are frequently asked by prospective applicants and their parents relates to getting help with the application process: How much help is too much? While there are few hard and fast rules, we believe a clear line is crossed when a piece of the application ceases to be exclusively the students in both thought and word. That is not to say that it is wrong to solicit feedback, just that there is a difference between feedback and coaching. </p>
<p>Appropriate feedback occurs when an applicant shows someone the completed application, perhaps once or twice, and is apprised of any glaring errors or omissions. Inappropriate coaching, on the other hand, occurs when either the essays or the applicants entire self-presentation is colored by someone other than the applicant.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So it does say no coaching.</p>
<p>And most people will lie and say they have had no help at all, including editing, etc. </p>
<p>I don't agree that MH and those expensive consultants is anything at all like providing a decent education for ones children. Positioning kids is idiotic; giving them the best tools possible (ie. "teaching them to fish", vs "giving them the fish") will last a lifetime.</p>
<p>Exploringmom:</p>
<p>I don't know why you think summer programs, choosing good schools, etc.. are all about "gaming the system." Perhaps you do not have a kid who looks forward all year long to the six weeks in which he can do math six days a week for 12-18 hours a day. I have one of those. Last summer, he and friends he made in the summer math program had a reunion (they're all in college now). It was clear they'd had a blast; that they had not attended the program for the sake of pleasing their parents or impressing colleges. </p>
<p>Did he have some advantages? Yes, of course, in having two highly educated parents who could pay for expensive summer programs. But where is the gaming in that?</p>
<p>ExploringMOM, What you call gaming, I call raising my kids:
[quote]
baby-games
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- umm, what else can babies do? they're too young for chores
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early music to program the mind
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- or just to dance to, and sing along to
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to the choice of private school
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- wish I could have afforded more of these
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selecting neighborhoods with the best public schools
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- and then volunteering tons of time to help keep them that way
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studying the selectivity ratings for prestige (regardless of difference in actual education)
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- not sure what you meant by this
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tutors
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- just me, but I'm darn good
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practicing SAT
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- they should go into a test blind? the library has review books
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sending kids to specialized summer programs
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- again, wish I had the $
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hanging out on here for tips
[/quote]
- and support, and interesting ideas
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coaching kids to take the 'right ECs'
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- and develop lifelong interests
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volunteer work
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- there's anything wrong with this?
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and all that AP baloney
[/quote]
- AP tests are a great way to demonstrate knowledge when your public school doesn't offer all you would like.
[quote]
The WHOLE THING is a game!
[/quote]
- What's wrong with doing the best you can to raise your kids?
-What's wrong with teaching them that learning is a wonderful adventure?
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There are many brilliant and amazing students out there. But without most of the above and more, the vast majority of those brilliant and amazing kids would not stand a chance.
[/quote]
- You're right, I wish I could reach out to all of them, and give them better opportunities. In fact, if all of us could commit right now to reaching out to just one underserved kid and putting them on the path to loving learning, and working hard at developing their talents, the world would be a much better place.</p>
<p>Really nice post geomom.</p>
<p>My post was not criticizing parental actions. It was criticizing the hypocrisy. The same parents who from birth are trying to win this college prize with all kinds of instrumental actions and choices year upon year, actually balk at another parent who hires a coach or consultant. As if only the latter action is disingenuous, or isn't fair or somehow undermines the "merit" system. </p>
<p>Back in the day no one I knew (and most of circle went to Ivy or similar related schools) did precollege summer camp, or took SAT classes, or 10 AP courses. So what's changed? The kids back then were just as smart as they are now. All that changed was hyper-competition for what is seen as a small group of select colleges. And (I might even say understandably) many parents now have their kids being coached and programmed from a very young age. </p>
<p>Again all these actions you may feel are necessary (I'm not even criticizing the actions per se). BUT - and this is my main point- to be indignant because someone has, heaven forbid!, hired a consultant or coach just makes me shake my head. Are you kidding me? It's not any different that most of this board! It's just one more thing that gives your kid 'an edge' like $$ for precollege, sat classes, the right ECs, private school and the like. </p>
<p>There is this whole huge, (largely dysfunctional industry, unfortunately) that we have become party to and willingly accept and buy into. That industry has nothing to do with making children better citizens, or learning for the sake of learning, or even moral development. It might be a side benefit, yes; but it could as easily destroy mental well being and the loss of childhood as we used to know it. Of course we can convince ourselves that its really for the 'right reasons' but I will bet you a million bucks if suddenly Ivies changed the criteria, all the behavior would be changing too. It's simply instrumental actions to get your kid into the "right" school (sadly often based on useless things like media rankings and prestige factor). </p>
<p>Consultants are only a small tiny symptom of a serious problem, and not any different from all the other symptoms.</p>