International Baccalaureate College Graduates

Parents Forum
241

<p>These two should have been separated. I apologise for not catching it.</p>

<p>"I received placement, not credit-- i.e. I didn't have to retake courses I had "taken" due to APs, but I didn't get credit towards graduation for any APs. 3) I'm a senior graduating in May at Brown University studying chemistry.:</p>

<p>"Overall APs are a joke in terms of preparing you for the difficulty of college work, in my experience, but if that level of content wasn't available I would be even worse off. APs are just not hard enough and the exams are not designed like a typical college exam is (for practical reasons) and courses are not taught like college courses so the result is not anything near mimicry of college work."</p>

242

<p>You are mixing apples and oranges. It may well cost thousands or millions of dollars to open and close magnet schools. That is not the same as running an IB program. Your district CHOOSES to run the program by opening and closing magnet schools. That is not a requirement of IB, that is how your district is running their high schools. And yes, I would have a problem with that---with my district, not with IB.</p>

<p>Our district chooses to run the program inside an exisiting high school. We don't open and close and move programs. Perhaps that's why we are financially solvent---at least to the extent possible in California. The IB co ordinator teaches a full slate of English 1 Honors classes (my dd is in one of them, she's a good teacher). Really, if your school district is wasteful, you need to deal with them about it, but it is not the fault of the IB program.</p>

<p>Many open forums were held before starting the IB program. Just like the open forums before MUN, about AP, before setting goals/priorities for rehab work at the schools, etc. It's just how we do it....and it works. Again, your disclosure issues are with your district. Not the IB program. (As an aside, it was interesting to see how many parents wanted to rebuild a pool--admittedly a health hazard of a pool, but still a pool, before doing earthquake retrofit. In Southern California, were we have earthquakes. The final vote did call for earthquake first, but it was weird to me that it even came up. Does that mean that all water polo programs think their programs should come before safety? No, it means that a group of parents were very single focused. After our last earthquake they were also very sheepish.)</p>

243

<p>
[quote]
You can call my information propaganda if it makes you feel better, at least you are honest enough to recognize that IBO is pumping out its fair share.

[/quote]
It has nothing to do with feeling better; it's simply calling something by its proper name. Your website doesn't provide "balance" to anything because it is stuffed with absurd claims. It would be much more persuasive, in fact, if you deleted the ridiculous stuff. Also, I just don't understand how you can successfully attack the value of IB in the face of people who are telling you how it benefitted their own kids: to paraphrase Groucho, who are we going to believe, you or our own eyes?</p>

244

<p>
[quote]
.... And out of the 400 kids, 13 earned the IB Diploma. That's 3%. And that's not crap. If you think spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on 3% of a high school population is a wise expenditure of taxdollars, well, then that's what you think. I don't think it is a wise expenditure.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please tell me observer that you are not THAT....... god what's the "Polite word"?....... "Uneducated"? Sorry, but that's as close to "polite" that I can come up with. There is NO SUCH THING as an IB school (In the context that we are debating). There are schools that OFFER the IB PROGRAM. You can NOT come up with 13 out of 400; 3%; or ANY COMBINATION of. That is simply stupid. (Not the person coming up with that comparison, but the comparison itself). That goes BEYOND apples and oranges. Money is spent in a school on band, art, orchestra, woodshop, sports, etc.... Each of these activities or curriculum represent a MINORITY of the school. You trying to say that only 3% of the class received the IB diploma is the definition and should be the poster child of someone who has no idea how statistics work. You are using 2 totally different entities to support your own agenda. Sorry, but you are WRONG! I have not said that to anyone of this forum yet, but you are wrong. The percentage of IB diploma graduates is as I posted; 76.45% or something like that. (I didn't go back and look). </p>

<p>
[quote]
Realize as one of the parents of IB graduates, you are considered "one of the good guys". I guarantee you if someone from your local press contacted your district for the information, the response would be very different. Most districts have a person in charge of dealing with the press. That person would have to field the question through the proper district channels. All sorts of red flags would go up because districts NEVER like to be questioned about their IB program by the press or anyone they could immediately tag as a "hostile" because they can't control what the press will do with the data. Nevertheless, I commend you for taking the initiative to provide this forum with the exact numbers, thank you.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are you really that LIMITED in your comprehension abilities??? I specifically said in my post; and I emphasized it because I KNEW YOU WOULD SAY SOMETHING "educationally challenged". I will even repost what I said:

[quote]
Now; before Observer jumps in and talks some trash mouth about how I HAD TO CALL to get the information; before hanging up, the coordinator as well as the secretary said (Without me asking); if you need a hard copy of that, it was in the school district's quarterly newsletter that came in the mail to you. If you don't have a copy or threw it away, we can get you another copy. I said no thanks, just curious of the number.

[/quote]

That newsletter is public information. it is sent out to everyone in the county school district. Because it's county property owners who pay school taxes. So, as usual, you know very little about what you are talking about. I totally respect your right to say what you want. But I am having a difficult time respecting the actual content of what you are saying. Your information and sources are questionable. And your retorts have very little to back them up other than opinion. Worst of all, is that you continue to misquote and misrepresent what others are posting. Your credibility in this topic is becoming very questionable. It's hard to take your points and consider them when I have to continually validate them because of so many misrepresentations.</p>

<p>I only responded because you totally misrepresented what I SAID. It's all in the posts. You are free to go back and look at it. I definitely suggest you go take a college class in statistics before you come out spouting numbers again. And please don't tell me you took statistics, because that will just reinforce that either the school you went to sucks, or you weren't a very good student. ANYONE who took statistics, knows the 2 basic truths. (Learned and described in many different ways) 1) You can make a statistic say anything you want it to, so make sure you have your ducks lined up. 2) Because of #1, make sure that your data is accurate and relevant. You can always argue statistics, but if you aren't using accurate or relevant data, then go home; because you have no place in the debate. Well, your whole 3% argument is toilet water. Unless you want to start arguing the money spent on the AP program? After all; that is an area that affects the minority percentage of the school. Same with money spent on cheerleading, art, music, metal shop, AP classes, etc... Except for BASIC math, english, history, and a couple of other STATE REQUIRED CLASSES; most classes available at a school usually supports a benefits a MINORITY percentage of the graduating class. Please; if you want to debate; at least come debating the right topic.</p>

245

<p>afadad,</p>

<p>I did skim over that part about it being in your newsletter. Mea culpa. You are lucky that your district is so open with information. Mine is not. Others are not. </p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
There is NO SUCH THING as an IB school

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>Wrong. Once a school receives IB authorization it is called an IB WORLD SCHOOL. I don't care if a school is running the program as a magnet, as the only advanced level program or swinging from the monkey bars, the OFFICIAL designation is the same.</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
You can NOT come up with 13 out of 400; 3%; or ANY COMBINATION of. That is simply stupid.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>It's stupid is it? And why is that? If I were to look across the board at programs offered to your students and compare dollars and participation percentage, I'm willing to bet IB comes out on the very low end of the totum pole in terms of number of students benefitting and relatively high cost. And I just love how IB supporters rush to compare the cost of IB to athletics instead of the very valid cost per student with its AP peer.</p>

246

<p>Hunt,</p>

<p>Please identify specifically what you think is the "ridiculous stuff". Thank you.</p>

247

<p>Here ya go, here's a brilliant move on the part of a school district: (Note that the agenda item was not open to public comment, how interesting)</p>

<p>News</a> : Bisbee cuts school week to 4 days : Sierra Vista, AZ</p>

248

<p>
[quote]
It's stupid is it? And why is that? If I were to look across the board at programs offered to your students and compare dollars and participation percentage,.....

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If you want to talk about the percentage of funds being used in a school for IB, in proportion to all other activities/classes in that school; that that is a legitimate debate. (Be prepared however to debate AP, Music, Art, athletics, etc... they all benefit or are used by a very small percentage of the school population). I can definitely debate/discuss that with you. However; you CAN'T.... Repeat CAN'T.... look at the number of IB diploma graduates and come up with ANY PERCENTAGE CORRELATION with the rest of the graduating class. Not if they AREN'T ALL ENROLLED IN THE IB PROGRAM. That doesn't work. You CAN'T argue it. The more you try, the less credible any of your arguments are. This has nothing to do with whether I agree with you or not. It has to do with you trying to say ONLY 3% of my son's graduating class received the IB diploma; as a means of trying to discredit it's effectiveness as as program/class. If you want to play that game, we can. You WILL LOSE. I can say that only 1.58% of the 400 students scored a 5 or higher average on their AP tests. WHAT????? What do you mean that ONLY 24.2% of the student body took AT LEAST 1 AP class? And that ONLY 16.6% scored a 3 or higher? And that I CAN'T use these numbers because they don't compare compatible stats???? Well; there's your first lesson in statistic. (By the way; those numbers ARE NOT MADE UP. They are the actual stats of Wisconsin's AP high school students for 2008). Number</a> of Wisconsin students taking Advanced Placement courses rises - JSOnline</p>

<p>I suggest you get your facts straight before playing. Especially if you want to compete.</p>

249

<p>Unacceptable Precondition of Debate</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I can definitely debate/discuss that with you. However; you CAN'T.... Repeat CAN'T.... look at the number of IB diploma graduates and come up with ANY PERCENTAGE CORRELATION with the rest of the graduating class. Not if they AREN'T ALL ENROLLED IN THE IB PROGRAM. That doesn't work.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>IF, we are looking at a graduating class, AND we are going to compare participation percentage for ALL of the students, then we must look at individual programs. If 200 out of 400 students take band and/or chorus or orchestra, then you have a 50% participation rate in music. If 100 students participate in art, you have a 25% participation rate. If 17 students participate in the full IB Diploma program (I stand corrected, I only counted 13 before), then you have a 3.5% participation rate. Do you see?</p>

250

<p>Actually, every student who took even a single IB class participated in and benefitted from the funds allotted to the IB program.....</p>

251

<p>The only greatness of IB is that of its own self-laudatory praise. There is no evidence to support the idea that an IB education is superior, and in fact, some schools have dumped it because:</p>

<p>It's only for the smart ones
It costs a lot of extra money
It comes from a foreign entity, wishing to be a government
As such teachers and schools must pledge to their political mission
The kids' tests are scored out of the country
Disputes are subject to the 'world court' which many of us don't even recognize
IB materials are biased toward allegiance to 'world government'.</p>

<p>Conclusion of a teacher of 35 years?</p>

<p>IB is an expensive, unproven fad that is more of an indoctrination scam coming from UN or UNESCO which hopes to sway their students toward a world government under their sole authority. </p>

<p>Their constitution is the UDHR, which says they are the only ones who give or take away your rights, according to their aims and goals.</p>

<p>This is counter to our Constitutional government which asserts that our rights are inherent and not to be determined by government.</p>

252

<p>But have you seen some of the materials? I have.</p>

253

<p>Lurking? I hardly think teaching under Goals 2000 and IB for 35 years is 'lurking'. I think I know what i am talking about.</p>

<p>Goals 2000 was mess, let alone something that actually openly has the UNESCO stamp on it. Why would any parent do that to their kid?</p>

<p>I had world languages in grade 5 in the TAG program -- no UN needed to teach me world stuff..</p>

<p>It's about the indoctrination that comes with both Goals 2000 and IB -- IB is Goals 2000 on steroids, a constructivist hell.</p>

254

<p>Pledge to their political message?? Disputes subject to world court?? IBO wishes to be a government??</p>

<p>When do they take this pledge, and what do they say? What do you mean by disputes? Come on, they want to be a government?? LOL</p>

<p>Teacher35 what did you teach for 35 years? Did you teach in an IB school? What materials have you seen that others who are IB students or had children who were IB students haven't seen?</p>

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<p>"America is behind the rest of the world in recognizing the IB programme. Certainly in the UK both the IB and A-levels are considered superior to AP. Anyone who has taken both IB and AP exams would laugh at the insinuation that AP is more difficult; multiple choice has no place in "college-level" examinations."</p>

<p>America is behind? That's what they would like you to think. I prefer to be 'behind' if it means teaching real skills and not politically indoctrinated children as I was asked to do.</p>

<p>Some of you yuppies would buy pasture coookies if the price was high enough.
Even kids in the program will tell you that IB teaches you to feel like you are better than everyone else, giving you an elitist attitude. And anyone who thinks multi-choice questions have no place in a college exam to me shows why kids graduate but can't spell or write a decent sentence. Essays are essays but facts are facts.</p>

<p>Oh way, IB doesn't teach facts, it asks you to 'construct your own knowledge'... sort of like the reality that Rod Blog wasn't selling the Senate seat -- he had constructed the reality that he hadn't ever said or thought of doing that. LOL</p>

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<p>You know, I spoke to a student who felt the way you do Vistany, that there is no hidden agenda. Then he mentioned a few glaring examples that I think everyone here would agree were biases or agendas. He was so used to this by the time he got to high school, he didn't even view them as bias or having an agenda!</p>

<p>Sadly the brainwashing is so thorough from the lower grades on up, even without IB, kids don't even know that the 'way forward' is not the American way... but the socialist way.</p>

<p>And to you rwlavalley -- why not just admit it is your job to 'sell' IB? </p>

<p>I feel this is wrong-- schools should just hire good teachers who know their subject areas and teach a rigorous curriculum that includes FACTS. If they can't do that without IB I question the quality of the school to begin with.</p>

<p>As I said, I had 3 languages in 5th grade and I can assure you that was a loooooooong time ago.</p>

<p>To soccerguy315: if the program is only for the 'smart' kids, what good is it? Why not just let them go to a private school? And I doubt Observer's kids had any trouble hanging out with smart kids... that's for sure. :-)</p>

257

<p>I think this thread has become a magnet for the anti-IB looney-toonies (you will note that I warned you earlier in the thread!) and perhaps should be closed.</p>

258

<p>You mean those who don't like IB shouldn't be allowed to post here?? And only those who do like IB should be allowed to post??</p>

<p>Wow.</p>

<p>I think the board is big enough to hear all points of view. I'm a liberal, and not afraid to have my ideas/biases/opinions questioned!</p>

259

<p>Well observer; there's your teacher. I thought you said that the teachers were all for it and it was the school's conspiracy to hide it all from the citizens. Hmmm; I think I was the one that said many of the teachers weren't for it. Oh well; as usual; your positions aren't consistent.</p>

<p>Teacher; my retort with observer was in the use of numbers as statistics. In our school, there were 17 students (seniors) in the IB program. Of those; 13 got the diploma. That is the statistic to work with. Our school doesn't allow taking INDIVIDUAL IB classes. So no, it did not benefit others in a manner than allows distorting the percentage of students receiving the IB diploma. No, observer, you are wrong. Again. We aren't even debating IB on this one. We're debating your ability to use the proper data when concluding a statistical response. </p>

<p>Teacher; I too would like to know how many IB classes you taught. How long were you an IB teacher. If you've never taught an IB class, then you are entitled to your opinion, but I definitely wouldn't classify you as an "Expert Witness". As for your list of problems; some are legit. Depending on your perspective. 1st; let's clarify that no one here has said that IB is superior to any other program. It seems like some people's insecurity that keeps making them say that. Is the IB program only for smart kids? Possibly. It's definitely not for the "Un-motivated" student. But then again, isn't AP classes (ADVANCED PLACEMENT) also for supposed SMART KIDS? At least smart in that subject area. Man; if you all are going to argue, at least stay consistent. </p>

<p>The rest of your points;
It comes from a foreign entity, wishing to be a government
As such teachers and schools must pledge to their political mission
The kids' tests are scored out of the country
Disputes are subject to the 'world court' which many of us don't even recognize
IB materials are biased toward allegiance to 'world government'.</p>

<p>Are so off the wall, I can't even begin to reply. But in a quick 2 line answer; 4 of the 6 you have absolutely no proof to be true let alone credible. Please. The other 2; tests scored out of country. (SO WHAT????) Nice argument teacher. And the other; Disputes subject to world court. (WHAT DISPUTES are you talking about). There is not 1 child in ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD being forced to participate in the IB program. Just like no student has to take AP classes. This is a forum; and as such, anonymity is easy and THE NORM. If you're really a teacher, that I guess my earlier comment about each school and district being different with good and bad in all is definitely true.</p>

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<p>Owlice, it has nothing to do with conservative versus liberal, or who is allowed to post. The thread was created to get stats from IB students (or their parents). The OP also asked the same questions about AP. </p>

<p>I am sure Teacher35, ObserverNY or perhaps you, can start a thread about IB that isn't trying to collect stats but is more of a pro/con thread.</p>

<p>I think actually that would help greatly, so that this thread can get back on track. As I stated near the very beginning of the thread, the stats could be used to prove some of the claims those who are opposed to IB have, or not...but digressing into some of this stuff takes away from the data collection.</p>

<p>Please, those of you who want to discuss IB beyond the stats that the OP was interested in, start another thread.</p>