<p>What would be the point of attracting students without immigrant experience vs. students who were children of immigrants.</p>
<p>In some of instances, these children of immigrants grow up in the worst of neighborhoods alongside their non-immigrant counter-parts. The only difference is that they work harder.</p>
<p>Attracting is not necessarily admitting. They try to attract as many as they can, then they will admit the best from that pool.</p>
<p>You have a good point. From a diversity/role-model building standpoint, immigrants are just as effective as non-immigrants.</p>
<p>Do you think colleges will favor an immigrant with harsh experiences more or a URM?</p>
<p>Probably both would just be a hook in the admissions process....</p>
<p>Being an immigrant URM with harsh experience... now that would be amazing.</p>
<p>I bet it will!
But I guess they might lower their standards for URMs, but not for most of the immigrants.</p>
<p>when i hear about people getting into schools with low scores, i always say "thats chism-status." at my school, a guy named chism went to brown with 1100something SAT. he wasn't a legacy, good at sports or particularly good at academics. he was black though, and he was the president of the school. you never know what they are looking for.</p>
<p>what do you know.. you have a 790 SAT score.</p>
<p>i'm predicting a lot higher than 1200 next time around, davidrune</p>
<p>DAMN!! I left for 24hrs and look at where the thread has reached. jajajaj keep it up guys. Hay Latinos ACA? Ethioman I see we have a common acquantance in Mr. Hill. Now you know why i wanted to confirm his info..lol he sounds like a pretty cool guy though. anmyways the conclusion is that harvard treats international black students as a part of the black minority..RIGHT??</p>
<p>I don't know what the answer is. I think that Harvard used to do that. I don't know, however, what their current policy is.</p>
<p>kooolll, I wonder if whites think AA is wrong. they probably real sour about that. especially with internationals..o well</p>
<p>I don't know, Kerron. If the shoe were on the other foot, would you think it wrong?</p>
<p>ii think anyone can say it's wrong when a URM born into affluence, with parents that have strong educational values, still has an advantage over a poor immigrant white who doesn't even speak english at home.</p>
<p>i guess the ends justify the means, huh? there are innocent people serving life in prison, but does that mean that we shouldn't have prisons?</p>
<p>wel i guess..we should be happy that the shoe is exactly where it is. Cuz I aint no affluent nothing. and the slavery thing not to sound racist or anything. but like bob marley said..one love. JAH RASTAFARI!!</p>
<p>I`m sorry that I am using this tread, but I don't want to start a new one. My question goes along with the same topic.</p>
<p>Do you think they would favor an immigrant from a country which they don't have many of them from a country, or they will pick the second generation kid from the same country, or they will take the international one from the same country.</p>
<p>For example, A Fresh Immigrant from Oman(let's say moved here 1-2 years ago, and has just learned English so he doesn't have great SATs, but he is a well qualified applicant in other aspects) vs. Omani-American(let's say 2nd-3rd generation with SATs like everyone else) vs. International Student From Oman</p>
<p>(I just need an example of a country that doesn't have many applicants and doesn't have many students at college at this point...excuse my ignorance if there are students from Oman at Harvard right now...)</p>
<p>I understand that they are not limited to only pick one, but I want to know which one of those would have a better chance.</p>
<p>One question that begs to be answered is, "Aren't there enough blacks who are descendants of Afro American slaves who qualify to be admitted to Harvard, the Ivies, or any of the competitive colleges??"</p>
<p>If the answer is "No", then we must ask "Why?".</p>
<p>The most underperforming and underacheiving lower class and economically disadvantaged American black receives little or no benefit from race based AA at Harvard or the competitive colleges.</p>
<p>Race based AA in admissions to elite colleges has done little in closing the racial gaps in academic achievement. These racial gaps have widen in recent years.</p>
<p>Affluent children of African immigrants should not receive racial preferences in admissions, because they are not the intended beneficiaries of AA. They don't deserve AA. They are not the intended beneficiaries of AA.</p>
<p>Why should these blacks, with all the advantages of their affuence in "gaming" the system, receiving race prefrences because they are underperforming? These blacks, who are not descendants of Afro-American slaves, should be not be admitted based solely on the color of their skins, with lower standards. This is how corrupt, demented, unjust and unfair race based AA to the elite colleges has become, especially to the descendants of American slaves, who receive no benefit at all.</p>
<p>In fact, why should ANY, immigrant or otherwise, underachieving and underperforming rich affluent American blacks, with all the economic advantages for "gaming" the admissions process by taking test prep, going to excellent schools, taking foreign travel and having parents with college graduate degrees, receive a racial preference over a higher performing and academic achieving dirt poor white or Asian with none of the aforementioned advantages of the rich blacks. That's exactly what happens with this corrupt policy of race based AA in favor of blacks, especially the ones from the middle and upper economis classes. They don't deserve preferential treatment based soley on the color of their skin.</p>
<p>"ii think anyone can say it's wrong when a URM born into affluence, with parents that have strong educational values, still has an advantage over a poor immigrant white who doesn't even speak english at home."</p>
<p>What's your evidence that the above is the case?</p>
<p>If it is the case (and I don't know whether it is), that may be because there are more applicants from the poor immigrant category than there are from the URM category. I would imagine, too, that billionaire's kids, extraordinary athletes, and prodigy french horn players also would get preference over poor immigrants' kids if poor immigrants' kids are in abundance while applicants in the other categories are not. So is the world of elite college admissions.</p>
<p>Northstarmom replied to the following statement, by asking for evidence.</p>
<p>[""ii think anyone can say it's wrong when a URM born into affluence, with parents that have strong educational values, still has an advantage over a poor immigrant white who doesn't even speak english at home."']</p>
<p>"What's your evidence that the above is the case?"</p>
<hr>
<p>That's definitely the case. The evidence of this is in the following facts.</p>
<p>NSM, how many blacks at Harvard or even at the rest of the Ivies qualify for the Pell Grants, given to students from low income families?? Answer- Much less than 10%. That means that close to 90% of the Harvard blacks are from the middle and upper economic classes, admitted with lowered standards and racial preferences. </p>
<p>Also, 6% of the legacy admits are black, or children of Harvard black alums, who were originally beneficiaries of race preferences for blacks with AA, a generation ago. Why should these black legacies receive a race preference, in addition to a legacy preference, especially when these black legacies of Harvard come from some of the most affluent families, of any race or ethnic group, in America?? These rich black legacies get TWO PREFERENCES, admitted with LOWERED STANDARDS. </p>
<p>Why should Northstarmom's son get a racial preference on admission as well as a legacy preference, if and when he applies to Harvard, so he can be admitted under lowered standards, because he is underperforming and underachieveing, relative to the rest of the applicants? If he weren't underperforming, and HE SHOULD NOT BE, simply because he is from the upper middle classs and a legacy of a black Harvard College graduate, Northstarmom, a 4th generation college graduate. Northstarmom's son does not deserve the race preference or AA, for admission to Harvard. You know what?, That is what the vast majority of underperforming and underachieving upper middle and upper class blacks get when they are admitted to Harvard with the RACIAL PREREFERENCE. This is absurb and grossly unfair and unjust. Yes, Northstarmom's case history is an argument against race based AA. What the middle and upper class Harvard blacks DISPLACED, after being admitted under AA with black race preferences and lowered standards, were the Asians and whites who were more stellar and higher performing from the lower economic classes. These upper class affluent blacks have had all the advantages of their economic class, i.e. excellent surburban schools, travel to France and the rest of the world, test prep, etc.. and they don't deserve a tip on admission with race preferences which is HUGE over a higher performing poorer Asian Am or white who is the "first in family to attend college". This is 2004, not the 1950s.</p>
<p>The beneficiaries of race based AA at Harvard are, by en large, the affluent blacks, who underperformed and underachieved, admitted under lowered standards. In fact, 2/3 of of Harvard's blacks are descendants of African and Carribbean immigrants, and not the decendants of Afro American slaves who suffered from the Jim Crow Laws, the intended beneficiaries of race based AA. Why do these Harvard blacks derserve racial preferential treatment on admission? That's ludricrous and perverse and a total corruption of AA and its original intent. The even LOWER PERFORMING and MORE UNDERACHIEVING blacks from the lowest economic classes, who are the actual descendants of Afro American slaves, receive no benefit at all from this demented policy, while the racial gaps between races in academic achievement have widen year after year. Race based AA solves absolutely nothing.</p>
<p>Again, the POOREST Asian Americans from families incomes of less than $20k/year with parents with a high school diploma or less outperform on the SAT I and achieve higher GPAs, and take more difficult courses than the richest blacks from family incomes of $100k/year and parents with college and graduate degrees. In fact, the poorest Asian Americans living in the poorest neighborhoods with blacks, outperform many whites in more affluent neighborhoods. That's the well known DARK secret that the politically correct refuse to acknlowledge.</p>
<p>The question is , WHY ?? What are the root causes for this OVERALL UNDERPERFORMANCE AND UNDERACHIEVEMENT of all blacks, including the most affluent blacks. That's the crux of the problem, and until you find the reasons for this, the racial gaps in academic achievement will never be narrowed or closed.</p>
<p>Blacks get a racial preference based on the color of the skin, irrespective of their economic status. In fact, the vast majority of blacks admitted to Harvard are affluent blacks from the middle and upper middle classes who underperform and are admitted with lowered standards simply because they are Black, not because they were economically disadvantaged. Harvard's admitted blacks, by en large, ARE NOT ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED. Less than 10% of them even qualify for the Pell Grants, given to economically disadvantaged students of any race.</p>
<p>I am for giving preferential treatment to students based on economic disadvantage of ANY race, including the ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED Hmongs, ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGE whites, and ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED blacks, based on an economic disadvantage preference on admissions, but not based on a racial preference. That's the main point.</p>
<p>Economic disadvantage TRANSCENDS RACE. Using the racial preference for blacks at Harvard and the Iviies does not benefit economically disadvantaged blacks by en large. The black racial preference benefits the affluent underachieving blacks. They should not receive preference over a higher performing poorer Asian American or Hmong.</p>
<p>That's the absurdity of using race as a factor or perference. Abolish race preferences and use everything else these schools deem necessary for admissions. Use economic disadvantage or "first in family to attend college" as preferences for admissions, but don't use race or ethnic group. The aforemention TRANSCENDS RACE.</p>
<p>NSM, where is your perspective?</p>
<p>There are not too many poor kids of any category at Harvard, especially for the blacks admitted with lower standards via AA. Hence, you have President Summers' new policy and initiative for no parental contribution to costs for students with family incomes of less than $40k/yr.</p>