International Black Students considered minority~!?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>Northstarmom also said,</p>

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<p>The world of elite college admissions is CHANGING. What you have just said, produces mediocrity, especially if the students are all middle and upper class, admitted with preferential treatment. That's how Harvard admitted its predominately WASP students, pre WW II, who came from the upper economic classes. President Conant called for a change during the early 1900s in this policy by requiring the SAT tests and admissions based on academic excellence. Hence, Harvard now is 30% Jews (2.5% of the American population), and 18% Asian American (4% of the American population), admitted without any racial or ethnic group preferences. In fact, Asian Americans, are NON-PREFERRED as opposed to blacks who are PREFFERRED, simply because not enough of the blacks can meet the standards that the rest of the class is admitted with. Therefore Asian Ams are subjected to limiting de facto quotas because they are overrreprensented and OVERQUALIFIED, whereas blacks are underrpresented because they are UNDERQUALIFIED. Again, it is all relative.</p>

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<p>"poor immigrants' kids are in abundance while applicants in the other categories are not. "</p>

<p>Is that an assumption or is it a fact? Are there really many poor immigrants applying? Or thats hypothetical?</p>

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<p>nsm, i'm talking about affirmative action. so, lets say they were equal in all other ways. harvard is need blind, right? so economic status isn't a factor in admissions.</p>

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<p>It's hypothetical as I have never seen the stats. I have noticed, though, that in my area there are lots of poor immigrants kids' from around the world who apply to top colleges. I do think that they outnumber the URMs who also have the stats to apply to such schools. In terms of the general population, there are more URMs, but the URMs seem to have lower gpas, weaker curricula and lower board scores. I think that's in part because the immigrants who live in my area came specifically for the educational opportunities the US has to offer. I also see more poor immigrants' kids applying to Harvard from my area than I see URMs. Even some of the folks who look like URMs are actually immigrants: African and Caribbean immigrants or their kids.</p>

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<p>Northstarmom said:</p>

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<p>Personal anecdotes prove nothing.</p>

<p>There are not too many poor kids of any category at Harvard, especially when the blacks admitted with lower standards via AA are from affluent backgrounds. Hence, you have President Summers' new policy and initiative for no parental contribution to costs for students with family incomes of less than $40k/yr. This policy would TRANSCEND race, but it may benefit poor blacks and URMs more, because the poor are disproportionately more black and latino.However, the poor blacks may not even qualify for admission to any college with poor stats and underpreparation, let alone Harvard or the elite schools. So what is one to do? You solve this problem at its root causes by better preparing these poor underperforming blacks and even the underperforming affluent blacks for college. Even the black immigrants or children of black immigrrants are admitted with lower standards and race preferences of AA. This is LUDICROUS. You just don't use DOUBLE standards for admissions, one lower standard for academically deficient blacks and a higher standard for the rest of the class. This solves absolutely nothing and causes a disservice to all blacks.</p>

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<p>NSM, would you please clarify this immigrant and URM situation for me?</p>

<p>I don't know much about this, because I have been in the U.S. for just a year, and I live in a part of Texas which doesn't have many applicants to Harvard. </p>

<p>I am just curious about my situation...and that's it...I would appreciate any comments...</p>

<p>I have learned English in the past year. I couldn't speak a word of English when I got here. Upon my arrival, I took the PSAT and scored a 330 on the verbal!!! But I have worked alot during the past year on my English( I even took AP Eng Lang class and got a good grade in it...my AP score is on the school's average). Now I have been scoring in the range of 600-650 on all of the 10RS practices. I took the real test Nov 6th and I am waiting for the score. Hopefully I haven't messed up(expecting 650V 800M). </p>

<p>I am also very involved in soccer. I was the youngest player to be invited to Iran's Under 16 international soccer team. </p>

<p>I wrote my optional essay about philosophy, and how I became interested in philosophy by living in an extremely restricted environment. Then I said that I am using the freedom in America, and I founded a philosophy club at my HS to express my thoughts and enjoy this freedom. I have also highlighted the fact that I have initiated a relationship between my club and Texas Christian University philosophy department in the past year. I am also about to publish two philosophy papers in English. One is about existentialism(it will be an essay of almost 40 pages), and another one is a short abstract, post-modernist story that deals with infinity and nihilism.</p>

<p>I have also had prestigious awards in Iran in mathematics. Currently, I am the only student who is studying Calculus BC independently(school doesn't offer BC...just AB which is just for seniors, but I took it as a junior).</p>

<p>I just had my interview with the alumni. It took hour and forty five minutes. We talked about political conflicts in Iran to "RED STATE PHENOMENON"...to UNDER THE SKIES OF THE WORLD, a book that we both had read it...it's a book by Dr. Jahanbegloo, an Iranian freedom activist, who is talking in FRENCH with another Iranian Dr. Shayegan( who was at Harvard few years ago for a year)...this book is currently being taught at Sorbonne University at masters degree. He was very impressed about my English, and he said that he will support my application as much as he can. </p>

<p>What do you think NSM? Do you say that there are many students like me out there?( sorry, if it sounds arrogant...it is rather ignorant because I don't interact with any Harvard applicants) Do you think they would favor a URM over a poor immigrant from a country like Iran over a URM?</p>

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<p>"Do you say that there are many students like me out there?"</p>

<p>Yes. While you may be rare in your area, you are not rare overall. Many ambitious, hardworking people come to the US in order to get an education and other opportunities. Such immigrants have to be far above and beyond the norm for their countries and for societies in general to have the courage to take such a leap into the unknown. It is not unusual for immigrants to have had national awards in their home countries.</p>

<p>Once here, such people act like you do: They move heaven and earth to learn English. They take full advantage of educational opportunities. With their natural assertiveness, they are the type of students who do form clubs and show other leadership.</p>

<p>Think about it: If they had been passive, unambitious, lacked discipline, timid etc., they'd still be in their home countries.</p>

<p>I would estimate that about one in four of the Harvard applicants whom I interview is a hard working immigrant who came to this country not knowing English and not knowing American culture, yet as a senior speaks fluent English and is doing major leadership in the school and often in the state. I have no idea about how representative what I see is, but I would guess that most cities with any kind of diversity have similar applicant pools.</p>

<p>I have no idea how the adcoms balance things. All I know is that the Harvard applicants overall seem remarkably alike when it comes to things like gpa, test scores, etc. What ends up happening is that the adcoms make decisions to create a well rounded class with all sorts of diversity. Students with rare and highly desireable qualities will be at an advantage.</p>

<p>Remember, too, that you are not just competing with URMs. You are competing with stellar white kids, poor kids, billionaires' kids, rural legacies, and, of course, other amazing immigrants as well as students who are residing in foreign countries. The overall pool is amazing. Don't try to reduce it to immigrants vs. URMs.</p>

<p>When it comes to admission decisions, for all I know, a poor, white guy who's first generation college and from rural Idaho and is his county's star pupil because he has gotten an "A" in their one AP class, cracked 1250 on the SAT and also won the livestock award at the state fair might be as desireable a candidate as you are.</p>

<p>No matter how much you feel that you stood out or how wonderful you felt your interview was, make sure that you are applying to some safety and good match schools.</p>

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<p>I am applying to many schools. I have to give a meaning to my harsh experiences. It would be pointless to come to U.S. and study at a low school. I hope that I get into at least on school.</p>

<p>My interviewr said, "you are the brightest and most sophisticated student that I have had the opportunity to interview for Harvard college in the past 15 years that I have been doing so..." But does that weigh at all?</p>

<p>What do you think in general about my chances? I know that there are alot out there just like me...(although I know that there are only 2-3 Iranians at Harvard now, and just 2 at Yale....) but how would you evaluate me?</p>

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<p>I do not give chances except to say that as is the case with the vast majority of applicants, you are qualified for admission. Since 1 in 10 applicants are admitted, consider that figure your odds. When it comes to a place like Harvard, the only people who are truly qualified to give chances are the adcoms. Everyone else is just throwing a dart in the dark.</p>

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<p>I understand.
Would you please explain a little bit about the interviews? I know that they don't wheigh much...but what if the interviewr's impressions of that one hour is same as the teachers and counselors? What if they all agree with each other on some very strong points...for example, both of my teachers and counselors have said that I am their best student in their career, then interviewr states the same thing(if you remember the quote)...
Also, how do you evaluate an applicant? I have heard about sheets that you have to rate the students...what are these categories? what are different ratings? I have heard it has ratings from 1(possible Nobel prize winner) to 10(lowest) for each category...how does that work? I mean are they important? Also is there a letter of rec.? because my interviewer took nearly 3 pages of notes while we were talking...
Do you have to set priorities for applicants of your areas? Do you rank them compared to each other also? I mean do you write the best letter for the best applicant that you think has the best chances?</p>

<p>By the way, I am a first generation student, too. I have long distance family members who have attended Cambridge, Harvard, Sorbonne, etc. But my own family is not very educated. Also my current school's average SAT is around high 800s.</p>

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<p>Interviewers have liitlle or no input in the decision to admit or reject. They are not privy to the applicants record or the complete application folder. In fact, interviewers are told not to ask about the student's stats, because they are given in the folders. The interview acts as a supplement to your application, or just another piece of info. It does not make or break you.You must remember that the interview is optional and not all applicants are interviewed, even at Harvard..</p>

<p>In fact, at Stanford, the adcom does not even suggest or recommend an alumni interview for the vast majority of its applicants. Interviews may be given to recruited applicants by on campus interviewers who are members of the adcoms or even faculty. If the student is recruited, such as athletes or URMs (blacks and latinos), Stanford would even fly a recruited black into Palo Alto, Calif., with all expenses paid, to recruit him as an URM, giving him racial preferences in admissions.</p>

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<p>Interviewers rate candidatees on academics, personal qualities, ECs and overall.
All interviewers are expected to substantiate their ratings in the body of the report they write on the candidate.
Different interviewers have different ways of figuring out how to rate candidates. </p>

<p>This is the same phenomenon that occurs when teachers rate candidates on recommendation forms. How the teachers decide on their ratings should be described in the comment section.</p>

<p>It is wonderful that you appear to have had a great interview. Bask in that warm feeling. Recognize, however, that no one can tell you how much that interview or any other individual aspect of your application will influence admissions. Whether you get in doesn't just depend on you: It also depends on the rest of the pool, including what the RD pool may offer. The only students who get in EA are ones that the adcoms are sure would be admitted when the RD applications are in.</p>

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<p>Is the interviewer supposed to ask about SAT scores and other stuff? Because on Yale's web site, I know it's not Harvard(!), it strongly discourages interviewer to ask about board tests. Also are you really allowed to indicate the chances of student at the end?
For example, my interviewer asked me about my SAts at the biginning, and it gave me the impression that he doesn't want to support kids who are not qualified academically. At the end he said, "I am your appilcation advocate, and I would love to have students going to Harvard from my area...I think you have a descent chance of getting in...I try to support you as much as I can...keep in touch...'It's not over until it's over'...hope for best, and even if you didn't get in try to apply to places like Yale, Princeton, and Columbia..."</p>

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<p>Northstarmom said, </p>

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<p>C'mon NSM. Being "qualified" or "truly qualified" does not mean EQUALLY QUALIFIED. Again, this is all relative. Admissions is a game of preferences given to PREFERRED STUDENTS, despite their qualifications. Just because a black who is given racial preferences on admissions with AA is "qualified" does not mean that he is EQUALLY QUALIFIED to the applicant who receives no preferences, such as whites and Asians. If this black were equally qualified, he would not need a racial preference on admissions. In the case of Asian Americans, the NON-PREFERRED applicants, they are limited by de facto quotas because Asian Americans are overrrepresented and OVERQUALIFIED, relative to the rest of the applicants. Asian Americans must meet a higher standard of achievement in order to be admitted. Previous studies have shown this to be true. This because of racial engineering of the class in attempt to give the class proportional racial racial representation in the population. Not all racial groups of applicants to Harvard are EQUALLY PREPARED or EQUALLY QUALIFIED.</p>

<p>Don't be fooled. Admissions is a zero-sum game. For everyone who is admitted, another is rejected. There are DOUBLE STANDARDS used in admissions, a lower standard for the preferred students, usually URMs (blacks, latinos) and a higher standard for the non-preferred students, Asian Americans. That's the gospel truth.</p>

<p>Race is the biggest factor in admissions, tipping the scales to admit if one is of the preferred groups, URMs (blacks and latinos) or tipping the scales to reject if one if from the non-preffered group, Asian Americans.</p>

<p>The one in ten chance for admittance does not apply to each separate group, but to the applicant group as a whole. Preferred groups have a much higher chance than one in ten to be admitted, especially URMs (blacks, latinos), making their stats (test scores and GPAs) almost meaningless when compared to the rest of the admitted class. Students are admitted to Harvard with SAT I scores as low as 1000 or less. Blacks are admitted at higher rates than other groups.</p>

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<p>"Is the interviewer supposed to ask about SAT scores and other stuff"</p>

<p>Harvard used to ask interviewers to do that. Now, their policy on this is not clear.'</p>

<p>" Also are you really allowed to indicate the chances of student at the end? "</p>

<p>Harvard asks interviewers not to do that. For the reasons that I've stated before, interviewers aren't qualified to give admission chances.</p>

<p>""I am your appilcation advocate, and I would love to have students going to Harvard from my area."</p>

<p>Probably every alumni interviewer would love to have students going to Harvard from their area. Virtually all also would not want to support kids who are not qualified. However, virtually all of the applicants are qualified for admission. If an alum interviewer adovcated for the admission of every student whom they interviewed, I doubt that the adcoms would place much weight on their recommendations. </p>

<p>I am curious about your philosophy club. What exactly does the club do? What is involved in its relationship with TCU? How did you go about starting the club and where did you get the idea? It sounds very interesting. What kind of publication will publish your philosophy papers?</p>

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<p>I started the philosophy club last year by support of my AP ENG teacher. I personally read about 10-15 essays every week and choose one of them in my own topic of choice. Then students will pick them up, and read them, then we discuss the paper. Sounds kinda manipulative, but I think I have the knowledge and the trust of others to do so. The idea of starting the club is perfectly presented in my optional essay. I have said that how Iran's restricted environment drove me to find some of the illegal books that opposed government's beliefs back in my Freshman year. But I couldn't express my thoughts in Iran because there is a huge distrust among people after 1978 revolution...well, when I came here, I became much more active...and a great point was when SHIRIN EBADI, the Iranian lady, won the Nobel Peace prize last year...It was certainly something to admire...
Although my HS principal opposed the start of this new club--because it wouldn't bring reputation to school and it is totally useless--, we finally made him consent...it was a long story...
TCU is the closest university to us. I tried to contact TCU phil dept. and now we are active...now, we are going to have the professors coming here as guest speakers...
I think thats enough about the club...it is just a discussion group...
One of my papers is dealing with existentialism...I have avoided summarizing other philosopher's. I have tried to come up with my own original and abstract ideas. There is about 8 pages that I am analyzing somone else's statement. Andre Gide: "my thoughts are the same color as my cloth." But rest of it is not talking about others for a long time...
My other work in English is an abstract, post-modernist story of a "kid" who is struggling with meaning of infinity and nihilism...it is fairly short, yet more insightful than the other paper...
My teachers are looking to publish this paper for me...hopefully, the EXISTENTIALISM will be published in a book, which is a collection of college and masters students essays about philosophy and psychology...</p>

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<p>It sounds like a wonderful club. Thanks for posting the info. I see why your interviewer was so excited! I am sorry that I didn't get to interview you. :)</p>

<p>How did you manage to start a philosophy club when you barely knew English? Even for native English speakers, philosophy writing is difficult to understand.</p>

<p>Where are you getting your essays from? If they are from sources like magazines, I would appreciate some titles, authors, etc. I know someone who has expressed interest in starting a similar club, and I'd like to give them the info.</p>

<p>Do you prepare discussion points? If you have anything that you could e-mail me, I would appreciate seeing what you're doing. It is fascinating.</p>

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<p>I appreciate it. At least it gives me confidence! Even if I don't get in, I am proud that some great people had good views on me.</p>

<p>Sure, I will help as much as I can. I didn't start the club right when I got here. Our school is on a trimester system. My Eng class started in the 2nd trimester, and I started the class after the first 6wks. We even had meetings in the summer in the local coffee shop.</p>

<p>I have a huge collection of books that have essays from different philosophers. I try to have practical readings as much as possible. We start our discussion with practical examples, then I try to indirectly force more abstract and theoretical ideas after a bit of discussion. But I don't force certain ideas...I let the participants decide what they want to talk about...</p>

<p>There are thousands of books usually under some title like "Introductory Philosophy" or "Introduction to Philosophy" that can be helpful for a group of beginners who intend to discuss some issue.
If you are looking for more theoretical material, you can see plato.stanford.edu
This is a very good philosophy encyclopedia, but the essays are very analytical...</p>

<p>so far we have talked about:
1)Theology
2)Religion, its necessity, and its connection to religion
3)Ethics, and its connections to religion
4)Free-will, and it's opposition to religion and ethics
5)Identity, internal and external identity...
6)Metaphysics(so far Monism, and Dualism...I try to have Pluralism soon...)
7)....</p>

<p>Each of these didn't just take one day to talk about. For example, we talked about ethics for 5 days, each day for about 2-3 hours...we have talked about morality of war to personal morals and valuse, their conflicts with society values....................</p>

<p>I would be happy to send you e-mails if you have questions...or you can introduce me to the peron who is trying to start a similar organization...</p>

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<p>correction: 2)Religion, its necessity, and its connection to THEOLOGY</p>

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<p>Are there any blacks or latinos here holla at da kid</p>