<p>ilovecalifornia,</p>
<p>Anyone in almost any nation who can make it into a major university is usually pretty "well-bred," and therefore likely to be able to hold their own in other countries.</p>
<p>Yes, Iranians do get underestimated. Yes, there is a lot of politics involved. But, don't go into the realm of hyperbole yourself.</p>
<p>I am not Iranian at all, but i can attest to the fact that they are extremely hardworking and tend to be VERY wealthy. I live in Newport Beach, CA and the area i live in is very high in Iranians and it also has a good number of east asians. At least in my school, which is very competitive, the Iranian students work much harder and seem to be more intelligent than the students of East Asian descent.</p>
<p>Iranians have more barriers to overcome coming to America. Just like Iraq had a mostly upper middle class intellectual elite in exile before 9/11, so does Iran because of its status as a pariah state. East Asians have it easier coming here, so you can't generalize that Iranians are smarter without understanding the trends that brought them here. There are smart people in every culture, saying that one is smarter and better than another is usually going to be a spurious claim at best.</p>
<p>greatestyen, your post is completely ignorant, baseless, and racist.</p>
<p>what the hell would you kno about Iran to make a statement saying Iranian kids don't have the stats to get into Berkeley?</p>
<p>While not Iranian, I can tell you that my dad from Libya (an Arabic country in northern Africa, FYI, you seem to be pretty ignorant) had no trouble getting into Berkeley 37 years ago. In fact he did it when he was 17 years old. </p>
<p>The fact is, countries throughout the world have HIGHLY competitive students. India, as a whole, seems to be most competitive of all just because of the sheer size of their population and the general cultural attitude towards higher education (which is a positive one). Asian countries are also highly competitive as well in seeking education in America, though I find that most Asians in american universities came to the country at a much earlier age with their families. </p>
<p>In that same regard, Arabic/Muslim countries most notably Iran and Pakistan also have a highly motivated and determined number of students that have, can, and do attend american universities. Don't let political climates and international issues blind you; yes, even those crazy Middle Eastern terrorist nations have some students that find the time to take a break from marching in the streets while burning U.S. flags and calling for Jihad to hit the books. [/sarcasm off]</p>
<p>And the fact that you respond to ilovecalifornia's replies by pointing out grammatical errors/debating semantics just makes you look LAME.</p>
<p>As far as North Korea? I doubt they could get out of their country, and the ones that do, you can be sure that the CIA/State Department has taken note.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As far as North Korea? I doubt they could get out of their country, and the ones that do, you can be sure that the CIA/State Department has taken note.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There are very few North Koreans who have asked for asylum in the US. Most of them either end up in the PRC. It's damned near impossible to leave, and there are many horror stories telling what the goons in the DPRK do to people who try to do so.</p>
<p>By the way, as far as all the "ZOMG, Iranians are rich and well educated!" comments are concerned-</p>
<p>Think about it, amigos. After the Shah lost power in Iran, what was the largest group to flee?</p>
<p>Oh yeah, wealthy, upper-class, educated Iranians.</p>
<p>It is arguable that the same scenario occurred with East Asians- those who fled with the advance of Communism to such places as the United States. Of course, I'm making a blatant generalization; my father came here horribly, horribly poor. But I think that many of the East Asians who fled here were highly-educated, and relatively wealthy.</p>
<p>So in my mind, east asians are equal in the intellect aspect, although not in numbers. </p>
<p>(Also, Ari- last I checked, whores didn't run N. Korea. They might do a better job, though, all things considered.)</p>
<p><a href="Also,%20Ari-%20last%20I%20checked,%20whores%20didn't%20run%20N.%20Korea.%20They%20might%20do%20a%20better%20job,%20though,%20all%20things%20considered.">quote</a>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Fixed. That is why you NEVER EVER write a post when you've just woken up and can't quite think straight. Your fingers go into auto-type and leave you open for very silly mistakes.</p>
<p>Good Lord, that was probably the single silliest mistake I've ever made on this site. I must remember that one. </p>
<p>
[quote]
It is arguable that the same scenario occurred with East Asians- those who fled with the advance of Communism to such places as the United States. Of course, I'm making a blatant generalization; my father came here horribly, horribly poor. But I think that many of the East Asians who fled here were highly-educated, and relatively wealthy.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Many were, but remember that many of the wealthy had the option of sticking with the KMT and going to Taiwan or simply fleeing south to Hong Kong. Wealthy, pro-Shah Iranians had few options outside of leaving for the staunch ally that was the US.</p>
<p>Why didn't they just go to Turkey and there to Europe? It's closer, as opposed to East Asia where the US is just a ocean away.</p>
<p>Some did. But at the time, the US was one of the staunchest allies of the Shah's regime. Turkey and Iran have never really been historical allies.</p>
<p>thank you lipanconjuring, i ****ing love you. you said what i was trying to say, but i guess my own personal bias (being iranian) got in the way of making my statement as clear as yours..</p>
<p>and also, thanks to ab_med.</p>
<p>OK, let me take lipanconjuring one step at a time. </p>
<p>
[quote]
greatestyen, your post is completely ignorant, baseless, and racist.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hm. The first two accusations are debatable. The third isn't. I am not guilty of RACISM. I am guilty of RACIALISM, that is, the academic recognotion that there ARE differences among people in this world and the implications people get out of those differences are what constitutes racism. </p>
<p>
[quote]
what the hell would you kno about Iran to make a statement saying Iranian kids don't have the stats to get into Berkeley?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I never said anything like that! This is what I said: </p>
<p>
[quote]
No offense to Iran and and North Korea, but I doubt either of them has very many 18 year olds with the stats to make it into Berkeley as an international. Even if they did, it's highly unlikely that they would get in.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Notice that I explicitly said that I think that neither of those two countries have "very many" students with the stats to get into Berkeley. I never said, as you claim, that I said those countries, and especially Iranian, have NO kids with the stats to get into Berkeley. That would just be intellectually ignorant of me. And I am not an intellectually ignorant person. </p>
<p>
[quote]
While not Iranian, I can tell you that my dad from Libya (an Arabic country in northern Africa, FYI, you seem to be pretty ignorant) had no trouble getting into Berkeley 37 years ago. In fact he did it when he was 17 years old.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hm...ok. That's great. Again, I never said Middle Easterners don't get into U.S. colleges. What I said was that they have an outstandingly hard time doing so because their schools, especially in Iran, do not have the rounded-out curriculum which U.S. colleges look for when evaluating international applicant pools. Again, feeder East Asian and European schools have this Western curriculum. Iran doesn't! </p>
<p>
[quote]
The fact is, countries throughout the world have HIGHLY competitive students. India, as a whole, seems to be most competitive of all just because of the sheer size of their population and the general cultural attitude towards higher education (which is a positive one). Asian countries are also highly competitive as well in seeking education in America, though I find that most Asians in american universities came to the country at a much earlier age with their families.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hm. Yes, I agree. Indian kids are very competitive and certain Indian schools have long histories of getting their kids into US schools. However, you must accept that Iran has problems getting kids into U.S. universities-making Iranian kids look less competitve than the rest of what you call "HIGHLY competitive students" "throughout the world." I mean, Iran isn't even offering the SAT anytime soon!</p>
<p>Yet, INDIA is offering it. So are Egypt, Arabia, Pakistan, etc. So don't even accuse me of racism. Here I am stating that the Arabians, which share racial bonds with the Iranians, have an easier time getting their kids into U.S. schools because they actually offer the SAT.</p>
<p>On a similar strand, what about AP tests? I can't find any info on these but I'd bet that the situation is the same. And it's pretty much a given that international students have to "prove" themselves to get into U.S. schools in today's applicant pools by taking loads of humanities AP tests. HOW IS IRAN GOING TO ACCOMPLISH THAT WITH ITS BANS ON VARIOUS ASPECTS OF WESTERN LITERARY CULTURE?!?!?! Where will the kids get the books?!?! PRACTICE TESTS WILL EXPOSE THEM TO "WESTERN DEMONS"!!!!</p>
<p>
[quote]
In that same regard, Arabic/Muslim countries most notably Iran and Pakistan also have a highly motivated and determined number of students that have, can, and do attend american universities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>AHHHHH. Once again, I never said Arabic/Muslim students "most [in] notably Iran and Pakistan" couldn't get into U.S. schools. What I said was that they have a harder time doing so because their scholastic environment is not what U.S. colleges TYPICALLY look for. </p>
<p>
[quote]
And the fact that you respond to ilovecalifornia's replies by pointing out grammatical errors/debating semantics just makes you look LAME.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And you know what makes you look LAME*R*? That not only did you fail to notice that I also replied with some no-grammatical policing, but that I typed said policing in order to (apparantly unsuccessfully) correct ilovecalifornia's flawed understanding of my argument---a flawed understand you yourself share. </p>
<p>As evidenced by THIS quote:: </p>
<p>
[quote]
Don't let political climates and international issues blind you; yes, even those crazy Middle Eastern terrorist nations have some students that find the time to take a break from marching in the streets while burning U.S. flags and calling for Jihad to hit the books. [/sarcasm off]
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know how many times I have to say it. I NEVER SAID THAT MUSLIMS OR IRANIANS OR WHATEVER COULDN'T GET INTO BERKELEY. WHAT I SAID WAS THAT IT'S HARDER FOR THEM TO DO SO FOR THE REASONS I HAVE NOW SPENT TWENTY MINUTES DESCRIBING. </p>
<hr>
<p>Another factor which makes Berkeley reject many international studen
ts: Tufts syndrome. MOST international students from the CONTINENT of Asia
want math/science/engineering degrees. While Berkeley is very very good in these fields, I suspect that the few students they let in (227 in 2005) are most likely from East Asia (Japan, South Korea, mostly) and European because those section of the world has US-style education. Now, if we're talking about MIT or things like that, then I would say they let in far fewer European kids (who usually study humanities) and let in the South Asians and Middle Easterns. </p>
<p>Another thing which should be considered is that WHILE students in Iran may very well get into Berkeley, it is highly unlikely that Berkeley will admit than one or two from the same school. Why? Because Berkeley looks for intelllectual diversity and IT GETS IT from East Asia (Japan, North Korea) because, once again, those schools have U.S.-style extracurricular programs, foster literary output, and encourage political activism-ALL things Berkeley LOVES to see in its applicants but which Iranian kids will, sadly, not be very strong in because the current regime does not tolerate such behavior. </p>
<p>Something else I want to say: It seems that my attackers are Americans of Middle Eastern descent. And it seems that they think I am "attacking" them. I am not, I am "attacking" the idea that students born, raised, and currently living in the Islamc Republic of Iran are, ONE THE WHOLE, ready to be admitted in large numbers to Berkeley or most other "prestigious" U.S. schools. They simply are not, not because they aren't innately "smart" enough," but also because the regime does not allow a U.S.-style education which is what U.S. colleges look for when evaluating international candidates.</p>
<p>the iranian kurriculm isnt outragus. they take science, math, language, etc etc. Its not like all there clases r religion/arabic/history if islam...and nuthing else.</p>
<p>...oh wait, knowing your weak method of debate, you'll probably target my grammatical and spelling errors before taking a stab at the substance of my post. i still find it hilarious that you tried to be a smart (butt) with me earlier, when your the fob, not me haha. as you can tell, i'm not really taking this topic seriously anymore...you seriously dont know jack about iran and to anyone whos on here talking about iran's literacy rates and educational flaws, i suggest they look at china bc although china has a crap load of competitive students, even they manage to leave a good amount of children behind. chinas literacy rate is 81, iran's is 79 so stop acting as if theres a HUGE difference bc in proportation to the population and in terms of competitivenss(if thats a word) of getting into universities, iran is underestimated</p>
<p>
[quote]
the iranian kurriculm isnt outragus. they take science, math, language, etc etc. Its not like all there clases r religion/arabic/history if islam...and nuthing else.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ok? I never said they don't take classes in those subjects, what I said was that I question the level to which those classes are equally well taught when compared to U.S./North Korean/Indian/European classes in the same subject. </p>
<p>
[quote]
...oh wait, knowing your weak method of debate, you'll probably target my grammatical and spelling errors before taking a stab at the substance of my post
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Huh? If you had the ability to comprehend what you're reading, you would have seen that I attacked the post I was replying to on many other counts other than grammar. And I'm sorry, but if you think grammar policing is a "weak method of debate" then maybe you just have a weak mind. Why? Because I purposefully use correct grammar in order to get exactly what I want to say across. I don't want readers to misunderstand my position, which is exactly what happens when people use incorrect grammar. Moreover, in the "real world," grammar counts. President Bush would know, maybe you could look up his embarrising mistakes and come to the conclusion that their ramifications were strong enough as to merit that he use standard grammar? </p>
<p>
[quote]
i still find it hilarious that you tried to be a smart (butt) with me earlier, when your the fob, not me haha.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>OK, so first you accuse me of racism and then you dismiss my arguments since I'm a "FOB"? What does my background have to do with my argument? Does it automatically make an idiot? Far from it, for though I may be a "FOB" that has absolubtely no correlation to intelligence, for most "FOBs" come here from Asia precisely because they are smart. I mean, your inclusion on the "FOB" clause against me and as evidence of your qualified Americaness into your silly counterargument is like someone else telling me that because I didn't live through the Nazi death camps, I can't argue for their existance. </p>
<p>
[quote]
i'm not really taking this topic seriously anymore
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Don't care for stream of consciousness. </p>
<p>
[quote]
you seriously dont know jack about iran and to anyone whos on here talking about iran's literacy rates and educational flaws, i suggest they look at china bc although china has a crap load of competitive students, even they manage to leave a good amount of children behind. chinas literacy rate is 81, iran's is 79 so stop acting as if theres a HUGE difference bc in proportation to the population and in terms of competitivenss(if thats a word) of getting into universities, iran is underestimated
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How can you be so idiotic?</p>
<p>High literacy rates do not equal effective levels of competition as far as U.S. colleges are concerned. Literacy rates measure a given populations' competence with basic reading, not the kind of reading needed for the SAT, much less the AP--WHICH ARE NOT OFFERED IN IRAN. I mean, by your logic, Mexico, which has an overall literacy rate of 92% and a youth literacy rate of 96%-both much higher than Iran OR China would be getting tons of its kids into U.S. colleges. But that is just not true. Mexico hardly sends any of its smart kids abroad, opting instead to educate them in national universities. The same is applicable to Iran.</p>
<p>I think ilovecaliforni just might be from Iran. Just a hunch.</p>
<p>you spelled accuse wrong greatestyen</p>
<p>also...
[quote]
I am guilty of RACIALISM, that is, the academic recognotion that there ARE differences among people in this world and the implications people get out of those differences are what constitutes racism.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You might want to use words that have a generally accepted meaning or at least acknowledge the fact that your word may not always be used in the way you use it...you know, in the spirit of making sure people know EXACTLY what you're talking about...by the way, you spelled recognition wrong</p>
<p>Oh? </p>
<p>I never said I was a spelling policer. What I said was that I was grammar policer.</p>
<p>The problem with greatestyen is that she's most likely dog looking, and therefore lacks substantial attention from her cohorts... in what we call the real world. She tries desperately to make a name for herself on these boards (where people can't pay testament to her acne ridden face, and nervous ticks whenever she's on the verge of making a point -- though she never quite gets there...) in the off-chance that we, the sane one's at cal, might become slightly impressed with her. </p>
<p>Mind you, this is the same chick who, in another thread labeled a person as being racist on account of mentioning their professor's ethnicity [<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1988144&postcount=22%5D%5B/url">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=1988144&postcount=22][/url</a>], It's hilarious how far doggie will go to make her point, even when she hasn't one to make.</p>
<p>In other words, don't mind the bark.</p>
<p>Oh, and greatestyen, in case you notice or are wondering. Yes, I merely registered to tell you how stupid/sick/weird I think you are.</p>