<p>calsiam,</p>
<p>Stop trolling, please.</p>
<p>LoL, entertaining.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The problem with greatestyen is that she's most likely dog looking, and therefore lacks substantial attention from her cohorts...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The "problem" with me is that I offer too much cognitive dissonance for your ass to handle. I may point out that nobody has attempted to point out the errors in my arguments in this thread. </p>
<p>
[quote]
She tries desperately to make a name for herself on these boards (where people can't pay testament to her acne ridden face, and nervous ticks whenever she's on the verge of making a point -- though she never quite gets there...) in the off-chance that we, the sane one's at cal, might become slightly impressed with her.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is really just too stupid. A name for myself? I can't say I've ever thought of it like that. Posters other than you, however, seem to value my opinion. I've been getting a lot of PMs seeking advide lately. Acne-ridden face? My face is entirely acne-free. I don't make points? Well, I'll have you know that not making points is a point. The sane one's at Cal? You, Mr. "Cal students are dumb," should not be talking. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Mind you, this is the same chick who, in another thread labeled a person as being racist on account of mentioning their professor's ethnicity [<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...4&postcount=22%5D%5B/url">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com...4&postcount=22][/url</a>], It's hilarious how far doggie will go to make her point, even when she hasn't one to make.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh?</p>
<p>Does this mean your elitist ass is becoming a liberal censor? Yeah, that's the way to do it. Point out that I labeled you a racist without offering up a link to the incriminating textual proof, or the agreement by other CC members that your comments are in fact racist. </p>
<p>This bit is particulalry worrying::</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's hilarious how far doggie will go to make her point, even when she hasn't one to make.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Being a radical atheist, vegan, and evolutionist, I don't find anything particular offense in being labeled a "doggie." So if you're trying to get a rise of out me, it's not working.</p>
<p>I'll briefly chime in here, it seems incredibly short-sighted if not outright culturally clueless to state that students from Iran are less qualified to go to Berkeley than those from other Asian countries because they can't read Lolita or other books like this in high school. I'm sure their HS literature curriculum is no worse than that of most Pacific Rim countries. As a matter of facts, they probably read books like Tom Sawyer, which are actually banned in many US school districts... There are a lot of great movies coming out of Iran in the past decade actually (many have won awards in European and American film festivals) but greatestyen, you're probably too ignorant to know that. </p>
<p>
[quote]
...those schools {from East Asia (Japan, North Korea)} have U.S.-style extracurricular programs, foster literary output, and encourage political activism
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, they favor cultural conformity and actually discourage political activism. As a matter of fact, South Korea, Taiwan were quite authoritarian countries up to recent times, when the cultures liberalized as a result of economic development and wealth. Through that era, Koreans and Taiwanese students had no problem thriving at Cal, despite the fact that they came from countries that had fairly repressive political environments. So your argument is flawed, even if one assumed that its premise was actually correct.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As a matter of facts, they probably read books like Tom Sawyer, which are actually banned in many US school districts...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This argument is as speculatory as saying that they're all completely ignorant of Western literature. Since neither one of you has a source, what you're both saying is equally fallacious.</p>
<p>
[quote]
No, they favor cultural conformity and actually discourage political activism.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I can attest to this. The Japanese do not foster literary output and encourage political activism. Literary output requires that students learn how to be creative. Japan's educational system encourages anything BUT creativity. As for political activism...well... you get a four year window during college to go out and be a crazy liberal. Then, if you're a man, it's off to the salt mines at some big firm, toiling away from 9 to 5. If you're a woman, it's off to make a baby and gossip about the neighbors.</p>
<p>But still, I wouldn't exactly gush about Iran either.</p>
<p>Most of this conversation is utterly ridiculous, considering the level that it has descended to is more or less name calling and personal attacks.</p>
<p>I think I'll chime in--first with a context is history, which most of you are sorely lacking.</p>
<p>A few things to keep in mind. Iranian education, under the Shah's regime, was more or less westernized and had a level of academic quality that was comparable to other nonindustrialized developing nations supported by the United States.
However, this education was only for the wealthiest elite--which was how most things were in the country. Thus, the sentiment of the general public was highly negative towards the Shah, leading to the abandonment of the Shah by the United States and the 1978-1979 revolution and the ascension of Ayatollah Khomeini.</p>
<p>It would be worth noting that due to the Shah's strong support of the U.S. and the general hatred of the Shah throughout the country, the U.S. was hated by the Iranian public by association. Thus, when the Islamic Revolution occured, the people gladly followed the mullahs' lead in banning what was seen as permissive western culture that was an affront to Islam.</p>
<p>It was at this point that Iranian education lost much of its sciences and literary academics, replaced by education of the Qua'ran under the institution of Shari'a law. After the death of Ayatollah Khomeini, the Majilis, filled with religious conservatives due to the nominations of the Council of Guardians, had many of the lower schools acquire jihadist curriculum, fostering hatred of the United States.</p>
<p>At this point, speciality education, such as in nuclear physics, is a realm seperate from the general educational state of Iran. That education only comes from special need and thus specialized training for students of promise.
Iranian students, in general, however, lack the academic opportunities to compete with the students of most other nations as their curriculum discourages various lines of thinking within science and strictly limiting their literary exposure.</p>
<p>Any attempt to change the curriculum would run against serious opposition from the Council of Guardian and the Faqih--not aided by the fact that Mohammed Khatami was replaced by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, meaning that not only are the theocratic elements against it, but the President is as well.</p>
<p>CalX, I would be hesistant to generalize to the entire country the efforts of a courageous few. The majority of Iranians, understandably, would be hesistant to so boldly oppose the government. Literature and popular culture would make a minority movement seem far more widespread in order to increase the appeal of it.
Being in a mullah-controlled government where such defiance is often fatal makes most people wisely, in the interests of self-preservation, shy away from such action.</p>
<p>What makes most of the "Tigers of Asia" and Japan attractive in terms of students is the fact that U.S. support and influence highly westernized the curriculum. Most of the math and science courses started out exactly the same as that of the United States and was accelerated from there. At this particular point in time, math and sciences in Asian countries exceeds that of most (but certainly not all) American high schools.
Due to economics ties to America as well as generally pro-American goverments, these countries pay special attention to English as a language as well as eagerly go on hiring campaigns for Americans to go overseas to teach at their classes.</p>
<p>These factors make countries such as South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. (but especially the big three Tiger countries) attractive to American universities.</p>
<p>China is another matter altogether. However, math and science curriculum is not stifled due to its communist government having no religion besides communism itself (which is a jealous religion that would accept no competitors). Due to this, history education along with acceptable literature is tightly controlled, but only somewhat moreso than that of Japan after the strong Premiership of Jiang Zemin and the current control by Hu Jintao, with influence in both of the parallel hiearchies of the People's Republic of China (Japanese being self-censorship that is no less effective, however).
Thus, China and Japan are somewhat less attactive to higher education (Japan more than China, due to the strong culture ties at this point brought about by the Cold War).</p>
<p>In general, however, Asian countries are more attractive to American universities as Newly Industrialized Countries (NIC) and even as Communist/Post-Communist states (C/P-C).</p>
<p>Due to academics being stifled due to either resources or religious reasons, however, Lesser Developed Countries (LDCs) such as Nigeria, Colombia, and the Phillippines, and Islamic States such as Iran, are not as strong as competitors against the other nations. </p>
<p>Some, of course, are still able to compete and gain attendance in American universities, but are disadvantaged by their country's educational system, and are mostly admitted (among the strongest of these candidates) due to diversity reasons rather than academic reasons, which are difficult to compare with more westernized nations.</p>
<p>Thus, the argument is moot, since the educational system preclude any accurate metric for discerning relative intelligences between the students of these countries.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Due to this, history education along with acceptable literature is tightly controlled, but only somewhat moreso than that of Japan
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Actually, curriculum is not really all that tightly controlled here. It's just bad in history. It really doesn't have to do with the LDP though.</p>
<p>You're right, I somewhat misworded that one.</p>
<p>What I meant is self-censorship in Japan caused problems in the historical education (which aren't that terribly severe in most subjects), in which the current Chinese educational system (liberalized significantly in recent times) is only marginally worse than that of Japan.</p>
<p>Y'know, I've tried to find the "bad" textbooks here, and I haven't.</p>
<p>The fact is, every history text I've browsed through has dealt with the Nanjing issues and WWII in fair detail. Probably not to the "OMG! Japan is bad! Hate your country!" detail that some Chinese and Koreans would like, but enough.</p>
<p>The worst self-censorship I've seen is the inability for the texts to deal with genocides outside of Japan. Most Japanese 14-year-olds don't know about any other genocides than what went on in China, and they can't even put Anne Frank and Holocaust together.</p>
<p>I suppose it is overall a subjective matter then.</p>
<p>In terms of historical content, my view on it is the academia in Japan is not as open as most Western countries, considering some of the attacks on dissenting academics. </p>
<p>Also, although textbooks don't have such a serious problem, I tend to have trouble accepting "academic" essays glorifying class A war criminals as classified by IMTEFE such as those by Ishihara Shintaro (though I suppose he would an extreme example).
However, perhaps that's rare and only seems prevalent because only the grevious cases become highly publicized.</p>
<p>You would probably have a better perspective on the matter, living in Japan.</p>
<p>Allorion,</p>
<p>I've decided that either I have a more complete perspective on the issue, or I'm slightly skewed in favor of Japan. I'm not entirely sure. I want to do work in China and S. Korea to really flesh it out, at any rate.</p>
<p>The so-called "academic" (I agree with your quotes) essays by guys like Ishihara are ridiculed by many. I met a prof. at Tokyo U. who said that he was a buffoon, and my profs. at U of Tsukuba complained about that sort of idiocy at least once. </p>
<p>Part of the problem for Japanese PR is the fact that while the vast majority of academics are very liberal and very critical of Japanese war history, there's still a streak of nationalistic stupidity that gets votes (look at Koizumi.) Most Japanese know that Koizumi's and the rest of the brash brigade's antics do nothing but rile China and Korea. However, there's also a bit of a defiant streak amongst the Japanese who've watched almost every apology get scorned, and watched the Chinese turn down repatriation money in the past. For some, it's a "what difference would it make?" line of thinking.</p>
<p>But I'd say that the vast majority of Japanese know that the Japanese f'ed up big time in the 20th century. They just don't care as much as the Koreans or Chinese (look at how the Chinese are largely indifferent to issues with Tibet or Muslims, for instance.) I don't think that the Japanese have done a terribly good job of making everyone know that they're sorry, but I don't think that there's a nationwide conspiracy to "silence the truth," either.</p>
<p>But Japanese academia is by no means at the level of openness or sophistication of Western academia. It pains me to say it, but it's true.</p>
<p>The reason why you don't see any SATs being scheduled in Iran is because foreign students are required to take the TOEFL, not SAT.</p>
<p>SeanMcG,</p>
<p>You still have to take the SAT to be accepted as an undergrad, even as a foreign student. For study abroad, however, only the TOEFL is required.</p>