Is a fourth year of math necessary for these schools

Applying to College
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<p>I am currently a Junior and I am considering a philosophy or history major in college. I am thinking about University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, Vanderbilt, Penn State, Indiana University-Bloomington, and University of California at Santa Barbara. Math has always been my weak point and I do not want to take a fourth year of math. My counselor has strongly advised against this, he told me that the first thing colleges look at is the depth and rigor of your mathematics classes. He also told me that he has had students who take 3 years of math but end up going to community college. The courses I will be taking my senior year are:
AP Environmental Science
AP government
AP College English
AP French (if I do not take math)
Honors Philosophy
Honors modern middle eastern history
Honors humanities</p>

<p>I am taking a solid academic courseload, will the exclusion of a math class weaken my chances of being admitted to the universities I listed above? I will list them again below:
Vanderbilt University
Penn State
Indiana University-Bloomington
University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
University of California- Santa Barbara</p>

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<p>weaken your chances?—yes.
What math course is next for you? PreCalc or Calc or something else?</p>

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<p>Trigonometry, how much of a hole am I putting myself in?</p>

4

<p>depends on a lot of things. Which specific school? Your grades, test scores, pretty much how strong of an applicant are you. What are you planning to major in? Regardless of major, going into college with out trig may really get you behind at some of the better schools on your list. I would stick with AP french and drop an honors and get trig in there somehow.</p>

5

<p>I currently have a 3.0 GPA at a competitive public HS with a few honors courses and I am taking the ACT in April but I took a practice ACT and got a 28 without studying, I think if i study I can get it up to at least 30. I have a family legacy at Vanderbilt. I played lacrosse freshman year and I started doing debate this year (junior year).</p>

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<p>Considering your uninviting GPA and lack of advanced math courses, I’d say that’s it’s almost necessary for you to take a 4th year of math. Regardless of your intended major, colleges (especially elite colleges such as Vanderbilt and UMich) want people who can think logically and numerically as well as creatively and philosophically. They want your high school courses to be spread out among the core subjects.</p>

<p>The vast majority of people who get admitted into Vanderbilt and the like have taken Calculus in high school. Not taking even Trigonometry, especially if your grades show noticeable weakness in the math/sciences, will severely lower your chances. I’m not saying absolutely rejection, but it will be tougher. </p>

<p>If I were you, I’d drop one of those honors courses (keep AP French, since foreign language is considered a core subject). You don’t need to take every humanities/social science course in your high to show your interest. You want to show colleges that you are capable of succeeding in all academic core subjects.</p>

<p>A word of caution on Philosophy - If you do intend on majoring in it, keep in mind that it requires a lot of logic skills. Taking numeric/logic based courses such as advanced math courses will help you.</p>

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<p>Ryanxing- how will numerical courses help my philosophical pursuits besides that it will enable me to have a more rounded thought process? I have a family legacy at vandy and my father is part of an alumni association, do you know how much weight a legacy holds at vanderbilt?</p>

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<p>Do you know how much weight a 3.0 legacy with a 28 ACT, one year of lacrosse and just started debate actually holds? Has your dad had this conversation with them? </p>

<p>Perhaps you already know you’re in. Otherwise, you did post the question and you are getting frank answers. Math is a significant indicator of willingness to challenge onesself, even if one intends a lib arts major. Higher level math is something the competition will be armed with, when they apply- we’re talking pre-calc and calc. Lots of kids from rigorous high schools.</p>

<p>ps. do you understand just how much money one donates, over a period of time, to win a development favor with admissions?</p>

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<p>According to the Vandy Common Data Set alumni relations are only considered while GPA, rank, ECs, essay, scores and class rigor are Very important. <a href=“https://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2010[/url]”>https://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2010&lt;/a&gt; And a quick google search found that Vandy recommends 4 years of math and requires 3 years.</p>

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<p>my dad has not spoken with Vanderbilt about the importance of mathematics, he said he knew the administration well enough that he could probably get me admitted but I was just gathering information because I am slightly dubious of my dad’s claim.</p>

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<p>I have heard from counselors and debate coaches that colleges (especially University of Chicago) like applicants who debate. One of the debate captains told me that just being part of the debate team helps your admission chance by 25% while being a varsity sport captain gives about an 8% boost. I am skeptical of these statistics but that is not why I joined debate.</p>

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<p>I, for one, am glad you are a bit skeptical about all this. Debate is great- but I’m not aware of statistics that it’s a hook. Athletics is a big unknown. For all the tales of varsity who slid into great schools, there are also tales of varsity kids playing sports on not-so-great D3 teams.<br>
Your best bet is to show some improvement in grades from now through next winter; make sure your activities (in and out of school) present a picture of an interesting, well-rounded kid who can take on some challenges; and, write great essays. Good Luck.</p>

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<p>Chibears, you have heard a lot of things that sound more than a little fishy to me.</p>

<p>Have you researched them yourself? Really, if you ask a bunch of people on the Internet, you’re just going to “hear” more things. The ratio of fact to old wives’ tales is probably higher on this site than, say, in the checkout line at Safeway, but I daresay there’s a lot of guessing on College Confidential, too.</p>

<p>Google the phrase “common data set” together with the name of a college that interests you. Look at section C of the school’s common data set for information on each college’s requirements for first-year applicants, the relative weight given to various features of an applicant’s credentials (grades, standardized test scores, legacy status, etc.), and information about the applicant pool for the current first-year class.</p>

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<p><a href=“https://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2010[/url]”>https://virg.vanderbilt.edu/virgweb/CDSC.aspx?year=2010&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>chibears, Please read through the most recent Common Data Set for Vanderbilt. You are going to have a very difficult time gaining acceptance with a 3.0 GPA and an ACT of 28.
I seriously doubt that having a parent who graduated from Vandi is going to compensate for a 3.0 GPA and an ACT of 28. If you look at the criteria used for admission’s consideration, alumni connection is only “considered” and is not weighted nearly as much as GPA, rigor, class rank, and test scores.</p>

<p>An ACT composite of 28 is below their 25th percentile.<br>
Their average ACT for accepted students is 30-34.</p>

<p>About 78% of accepted students have a GPA of at least a 3.5
Only about 6% of accepted students had a GPA of 3.0 (perhaps hooked athletes and such)</p>

<p>They require at least 3 units of HS Math, but they recommend 4 units of HS Math.</p>

<p>At our public HS, trig is considered a 3rd year level Math (not a 4th year level math).</p>

<p>As far as rigor goes:
AP Chem, AP Bio, and AP Physics trumps AP Environmental Science or AP Psychology</p>

<p>Have you taken the typical college bound Science sequence of Bio, Chem, and Physics? According to the Common Data set in the link, Vandi requires 3 units of HS Science w/Lab. If you haven’t completed the Bio, Chem, Physics sequence, I recommend taking one of them in place of AP Environmental.</p>

<p>correction: I just noticed that the ACT of 28 was a practice test. Wait until you have your official scores back before finalizing your college list. Also, it’s important to remember that your cumulative GPA through the end of your junior year is what the colleges are going to be concentrating on when reviewing your application. Your senior year grades are viewed later on to show that you’ve maintained your grades and not succumbed to senioritis.</p>

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<p><a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning;
^Here’s the Common Data Set for the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor.</p>

<p>They require 3-4 units of Math. They recommend 4 units of Math.</p>

<p>Almost 90% of accepted students had a GPA of at least 3.5
97% of accepted students were in the top 25% of their HS graduating class.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://bap.ucsb.edu/IR/CDS.pdf[/url]”>http://bap.ucsb.edu/IR/CDS.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
^Here’s some info about UC-Santa Barbara. It’s a bit dated (2008), but it will give you some idea.</p>

<p>Even in this dated Common Data Set (2008-2009), you’ll notice that 96% of accepted students had a GPA of at least 3.25. The average GPA at the time for accepted students was 3.85.</p>

<p><a href=“Error Page”>Error Page;
^Here’s the most current Common Data Set for Penn State.</p>

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<p>There are math classes at all levels that you enroll in on-line and work at your own pace. Johns Hopkins and, I believe, Stanford both offer these classes. They are pricey, and you won’t get the credit for the class on your high school transcript, but you will be able to report in your application that you are doing the higher level math and, as I said, at your own pace. Another option is to consider a Statistics class if your school or community college offers that. Stat is extremely useful since it’s so applied.</p>

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<p>yes, I have completed college prep level biology and chemistry and I will complete physics by the end of this school year. The 28 was a sightread on a practice ACT test, I have begun studying for the ACT and I am certain I will get at least a 30</p>

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<p>M’s mom- there is an AP statistics class offered but I will not have met the prerequisites required for the course because my highest math course taken was Advanced Algebra. I can sign override forms so I can take AP statistics but do you think a B or A in advanced algebra is sufficien to succeed in AP statistics?</p>

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<p>thank you, your sugesstions are very helpful. I appreciate everyone’s feedback.</p>