Is anyone besides me frustrated with the entitlement mentality that seems prevalent

Parents Forum
61

<p>I'm thinking back, and my mom didn't go to college, her mother was on welfare, and she had to cheat a bit to not have to quit high school two weeks before graduation because she turned 18. My dad's immediate family was not well off, but a rich uncle offered to pay for any of the boys in his family college if they could make it into Notre Dame.</p>

<p>Fast forward to my generation. My husband's dad offered to pay for a UC education, anything beyond that was up to the child. My parents offered enough for the first year of a UC education, from there I had to cover the rest myself.</p>

<p>Fast forward to my children. We have enough saved for a UC education for each child. So they have risen with the tides, and get the best deal either of their parents got. They don't need to work through college like I did, but they can if they want.</p>

<p>What I see going on around me however is that parents that attained that expensive private education through work and loans now want their children to get that expensive private education through grants and scholarships.</p>

<p>And, of course, the thought occurs to me that if that expensive private education was the key to financial success, wouldn't you then be able to pay for your child's expensive private education.</p>

62

<p>"And, of course, the thought occurs to me that if that expensive private education was the key to financial success, wouldn't you then be able to pay for your child's expensive private education."</p>

<p>It's one of the ironies that has also occurred to me.</p>

63

<p>"So I guess that puts you in the camp of reserving the "dream school" for the lucky few?"</p>

<p>Yep, right up there with the dream yacht and dream private island.</p>

64

<p>"Again the first step is
reinvestment in the state college system."</p>

<p>Boy do I agree with that.</p>

65

<p>
[quote]
My parents offered enough for the first year of a UC education, from there I had to cover the rest myself.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A student can't do this anymore, i.e., cover their tuition at a UC by working their way through. Its $25,000 per year now with room and board. Maybe they can do it if their home is close enough so they can live there. The students' only choices now are to have their parents pay, hope for FA, or go to community college. I suppose some people would belittle the student for bemoaning the fact that they might have to go to cc. I wouldn't since back then I could get a loan in my name and pay it back over 15 years relatively easily. They won't have this option.</p>

66

<p>I agree with above.</p>

<p>When I attended UCLA it was $300 a quarter! I worked full time to pay for my tuition, room and board...3:30 to midnight as an admissions clerk. Kids these days think they have it so hard and they have no idea...my kids included...but we usually want our kids to have it easier or "better" than we did.....interesting discussion. Daughter one was accepted to UC Berkeley as out of state student 2 years ago. Tuition was $42K a year and maximum we could get in fnancial aid was $9K a year.
A student could never afford to earn that kind of money on their own. Something has to be done about the cost of tuition, room and board these days. Just look at the money put into college viewbooks and flyers to try and get your kid to go to a particular school. It's big money to those schools.</p>

<p>And part of the reason the kids aren't satisfied going to the community collegge is because they will be competing for jobs against the students who attend the "better" colleges and universities. The prime jobs as we all know go to companies who higher only kids who graduated from prestigious colleges and unviersities. Even the company I work for now will only interview kids from the best schools, the kids who went to the state colleges or community colleges don't have a prayer unless they went to a major state school that is considered prestigious like Michigan or Illinois.</p>

67

<p>"I suppose some people would belittle the student for bemoaning the fact that they might have to go to cc."</p>

<p>"Have" to go to cc? They <em>choose</em> to go to cc (many, many upper middle class students in my urban/suburban area) as a money-saving strategy. Many of them have chosen, actually, not even to apply to privates for which they qualify, with merit aid, or for the full 4-yr in-state, because they know they will need money for grad school or professional school; they are ambitious.</p>

<p>Their options are in front of them. Rather than bemoaning about the good old days (which in some ways were also better for poor people than now, when it can be nigh-impossible to survive with merely a low-paying, or several low-paying jobs), these people calculate their choices & make their decisions. Those decisions are not equally ideal; some are not 'ideal' at all. But they've made their peace with the high cost of modern living, including modern education. Many people on this thread do not appear to have done so, at all.</p>

<p>I know a family with only one child that at one point struggled severely through financial crises that had nothing to do with any of the so-called situations named on this thread. Their beautiful daughter was a star student & athlete. She got offers at premier institutions in the country. (She was one of those athletes who are also high-achieving academically.) However, the family was looking at not even being able to afford some of the start-up costs such as books, modest enrollment deposits, & travel from one coast. Her options were limited. Rather than bemoan why she had not <em>more</em> options, she chose a Service Academy (Anapolis). In the student's & family's eyes, there were no other options if she wanted an excellent education. She will pay with her labor after college, and then some.</p>

<p>There's just no perspective here, it seems.</p>

68

<p>"The poor can practically go to any school for almost nothing. That is what I am against. I have no problem with helping the poor go to college. It just doesn't have to be harvard or yale."</p>

<p>Ooohh.. I have such a problem with this because it's not even true. <em>Most</em> poor kids do not go to school for almost nothing. <em>Most</em> schools gap. <em>Most</em> schools-- even those that meet full need-- expect all students to take loans, work summer jobs and take college work-study. About 30 schools in the country don't expect students/ poor students to take loans-- but, as far as I know, that doesn't get the students out of work-study or summer jobs. So what you're talking about is the FEW poor kids who manage to get into one of those 30 schools (completely against the odds). Yes, they're blessed-- but they're being blessed by the generous endowments of those schools, not your tax $ or even your tuition $ since all those have quite a bit of $. (By the way, as one whose child applied to no-loan schools, I just want you to know that every one of those schools calculated "parent contribution" higher than the loan schools (and some made student earnings higher too). So while, <em>on paper</em> it might say "no loans," if the student is expected to earn $3K a summer, $2K a schoolyear and parents are expected to contribute $2K (despite a FAFSA EFC of $200), the student may have to take out a loan because he can't earn the $7K a year the school is estimating). </p>

<p>All that said, I am glad there are wonderful state schools and wonderful community colleges. I just don't think it's accurate to say that poor kids have it so easy. <em>Most</em> poor kids <em>do</em> attend community colleges, work, attend state schools, take longer to graduate, etc. And to those blessed enough to be at a school that is willing to pay their way-- how wonderful for them! May they use their blessings for good. </p>

<p>Oldfort, I agree about internationals. It's amazing to me that they feel entitled to US financial aid.</p>

69

<p>UC Santa Barbara is about $20,000
UCSB</a> Financial Aid
Only including things like transportation, phone, etc is higher. But I expect most families are going to keep their kids on their cell plan.
So deduct $ 348.
Ditto for books and supplies- its good to have an idea of what it costs, but lots of ways to shop around
They are allowing almost $1,200 for transportation.
It took me $1.25 to get to the airport by bus, I also think that if you can't afford airfare, you should look at schools you can access by train or greyhound. Incidentally Santa Barbara has a train stop.
health care allowance $ 920.
Well its nice to allow a hundred dollars or so for each money that you will be at school, but is that really necessary?
My daughter doesn't pay that much for private ins & most students will still be covered on their families plan.
Personal expenses
$1758
lol
I know this is Santa Barbara but Dargans isn't that expensive and they don't have a cover charge.
;)</p>

70

<p>The American Dream has nothing to do with what you have. It has nothing to do with having more than your parents. It has nothing to do with what college you go to, if at all. The American dream is the SIMPLEST concept in the world. It's "Having the opportunity". That's all it is or ever was meant to be. You have the opportunity to go to any school in the country that you get accepted to. People have been doing it for generations. If you apply to Yale, Harvard, MIT, CALTEC, Pepperdine, or any other school and get accepted; then good for you. Money does not have to stand in your way. People have worked their way through college also for generations. WHY SHOULD YOU BE ANY DIFFERENT?</p>

<p>Of course, it comes back to class warfare. Why should some kids be from a fortunate family and not have to work their way through college while another kid has to do work programs, loans, summer jobs, etc... Why? Because that's life. It isn't always fare, and it's NOT suppose to be.</p>

<p>I will never feel sorry for a kid who's working his way through an elite college. I worked my way through 3 colleges. I also don't believe that a prestigious school like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc... are any better than the state "U" because of the name. I never have. Paying $50,000 a year compared to $15,000 is just plain stupid. Now, if the degree you are going for is specialized degree or your plans include stair stepping up, then certain colleges should be your dream because they are the best at that particular course work. I.e. Colorado state university is one of the premier colleges in the country to be a Veterinarian. Michigan State if you want to be a research scientist. Caltec/MIT for high tech engineering. University of Miami for oceanography and marine biology. But, if you are going for some degree in liberal arts, basic business, etc... then sorry, but I have no compassion for hearing complaints about the price of admission to HYPS, etc....</p>

71

<p>
[quote]
Have" to go to cc? They <em>choose</em> to go to cc (many, many upper middle class students in my urban/suburban area) as a money-saving strategy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm sure this is true, and it will save them about $50,000. Unfortunately, they will have to come up with another $50,000 if they want to get a degree from a U.C.</p>

72

<p>
[quote]
You have the opportunity to go to any school in the country that you get accepted to. People have been doing it for generations. If you apply to Yale, Harvard, MIT, CALTEC, Pepperdine, or any other school and get accepted; then good for you. Money does not have to stand in your way. People have worked their way through college also for generations. WHY SHOULD YOU BE ANY DIFFERENT?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ahh, if only this were true! It certainly is the ideal. Unfortunately, money is exactly what is standing in the way of many students' ability to go to any school in the country. Do you have specific ideas about how a student works his/her way through a $200K tuition bill?</p>

73

<p>* I.e. Colorado state university is one of the premier colleges in the country to be a Veterinarian.*
Admit I haven't heard of colorado state ( which one?) associated with veterinary- usually it has been Cornell, WSU or Davis.
Davis at the top.</p>

<p>Same with Michigan state- but it would depend on field of research.</p>

<p>High tech engineering- that wouldn't only be MIT/Caltech, but UW, Johns Hopkins, Virginia Tech...</p>

<p>Wrong coast for hearing of U Miami.
There is some ground breaking stuff happening again at UW, also Santa Cruz, Santa Barbara, even Humboldt has its own research vessel for undergrads.
Local</a> News | $335 million, UW's "Neptune" system to help scientists study ocean floor | Seattle Times Newspaper
If I with 6 trillion posts aren't familiar with all the colleges available, it is easy to see why an over anxious high school senior is only thinking about the names they saw on sweatshirts while watching the Sopranos.
;)
So you can see " best" is in the eye of the beholder.
.</p>

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<p>"""I also don't believe that a prestigious school like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc... are any better than the state "U" because of the name. I never have. Paying $50,000 a year compared to $15,000 is just plain stupid."""</p>

<p>Let's try to find a starting point for discussion. Do you believe that the earth is the center of the universe? and that it is flat and not round? It is a certainty that HPY are the premier educational institutions in this country. They are not the problem with price. They provide a "free" education to those making less than $60K.</p>

75

<p>Emeraldkity; Colorado State University, Fort Collins Colorado.Anyway, ask any vet and they know it.</p>

<p>Bay; sorry, but you are way off. The only way you would have a $200,000 college bill is if you chose to have that. First of all; with current aid and such, the national AVERAGE debt upon graduation is only about $20,000. With new initiatives offered by schools like Harvard, the average debt on graduation is less than $10,000. These are the facts. If you get accepted to Harvard, and your family make $40,000 or less, then your family doesn't even have to make a contribution. If they make up to $60,000 is only a couple thousand.</p>

<p>Harvard is not alone. If you walk into a school and are paying full price, then the word sucker must be written on your head someplace. Now; if you are the middle income $100-$200K; then yes; you are getting screwed. You practically can't get any actual financial aid. However, there are plenty of private scholarships, decent loans, schools with merit, etc... If you say that money is standing in the way, then that is your choice. You have chosen for the money to stand in your way. And, if I might say, that is actually a wise choice. If I was poor; I would definitely send my kids to Harvard if they could get accepted. It's practically free. If I was a millionaire, I would also send them because I wouldn't care. As a middle income, I wouldn't think of it unless they were getting scholarships and such. There's only about 5000 other schools with just as good of an education for a forth of the price.</p>

<p>For the middle income; Harvard, Yale, etc... are not worth the $50,000 because of lack of aid. But, as far as them being a PREMIER school; that totally depends on what it is you want to study. If you want to study marine biology, then they suck. I wouldn't go there for geology, vet, or a host of other majors. But for what they are known for, they are good. Mind you, I'm not a fan of liberal arts colleges with degrees in things that you don't get a job doing. I have no problem with minors, but unless you want a job in a museum, then a degree in Art History is silly. As is philosophy and many other liberal art degrees. Of course if you want to teach these or there's an occupation attached to them, then that's a different story.</p>

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<p>Ok thanks for the clarification. I took your post literally. I assumed you were referring to any student at any school and their ability to work their way through.</p>

77

<p>Quote: <em>Most</em> schools-- even those that meet full need-- expect all students to take loans, work summer jobs and take college work-study.</p>

<p>Boo-effin-hoo. My mom dropped out and worked full time so my dad could get his degree back when you either paid or did not go to college; later on after her youngest started school she went back and got her RN and all along my parents expected us to work and save for college to supplement what they were able to save---and this was when tuition was $275 per quarter and room and board was about $1200 for the year! In spite of all of the planning and saving I still took out some loans and worked steadily to pay expenses at a basic not-fancy state university.</p>

<p>The simple difference between then and now is that only a tiny minority of the population even aspired to a private education. A four year college--even the local commuter school--was more than good enough. Thanks to all of the marketing done by private colleges during the Baby Bust years after 1984 or so we are stuck with this system, in which in a very subtle way private schools created doubt about whether a basic State U. degree would be "goo d enough."</p>

<p>We live in a state with a pretty good state U. system and we are in a pretty middle class area, and I have to say the smartest of the smart do go in significant numbers to the state U. If I had to rank colleges based on the raw quality of entering freshmen, I'd say Top 20 national/lib arts split the very very tippy top students in our town pretty evenly with the flagship state U. The next band goes to the flagship U. or the regional state U's (the former teacher's colleges and ag school). Those in the second band who can afford it may opt for lesser known private colleges, but that is a very few students.</p>

<p>Anybody who goes to a state flagship school will encounter hordes of extremely bright and capable students who can succeed on any campus anywhere. It's just the nature of college--not everybody wants to go vast distances from home or pay a huge premium over in state tuition.</p>

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<p>Mombot,</p>

<p>I think your post nailed it. If you do well enough at almost any flagship state school, no doors will be closed. Many students go on to elite law, medical, PhD and MBA programs from state universities.</p>

79

<p>The issue goes way beyond the OP by Taxguy. It permeates schools and society. Students feel once they are in a school, any school, thats all that is needed (or at best some sort of minimal attempt to work) not to actually have to produce. The "I tried" is good enough so I should pass, or be on the team, etc. It has come from the mentality of telling kids for years now "good job", even if they struck out 3 times and caused the team to lose. The kid knows it was not a "good job". Shouldn't the proper response be, gee perhaps we need some batting practice, or a batting coach to help, or even baseball is just not your game, rather than tell the lie it was a good job. In time, all this good job stuff leads to expectations that people are owed stuff because they tried, or were just there. I don't think anyone wants a doctor who graduated med school because he or she simply got in and tried in med school.</p>

80

<p>
[quote]
And, of course, the thought occurs to me that if that expensive private education was the key to financial success, wouldn't you then be able to pay for your child's expensive private education.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Maybe, if you valued money above all else and took a high-paying job, but maybe "financial success" isn't the only kind of success that exists. (Probably a hard concept for some to wrap their heads around!) If you have different values, you might have had a private college education, but work, say, in education, perhaps teaching 4th grade. Or maybe you went into law enforcement. Or mosquito control for a local government. Maybe you got a PhD in music composition, or do diagnostic lab work. Maybe you help people with adult-onset disabilities -- amputees, people with kidney disease, MS, for example -- find new jobs because they cannot go back to the careers they used to have. Maybe you work in child protective services, or special education. Maybe you have a family farm or ranch, and make your living providing food. Maybe you run a non-profit that feeds and clothes the poor.</p>

<p>There are many, many jobs worth doing that don't pay well, and not all success is financial.</p>