Is 'Bama the school less conservative and more progressive than 'Bama the state?

Wow, I’ve learned a lot here on College Confidential but learning that the Civil War was not fought over slavery is a new one to me. Of course this conclusion is refuted by the language used by the actual confederates. Of special note is the very blunt language utilized by Mississippi and Georgia in describing their reasons for secession.

Georgia’s Ordinance of Secession: “The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present … the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slaveholding confederate States, with reference to the subject of African slavery. … The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party … anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. … The prohibition of slavery in the territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races … were boldly proclaimed by its leaders, and applauded by its followers. … The prohibition of slavery in the territories is the cardinal principle of this organization. … These are the men who say the Union shall be preserved. … Such are the opinions and such are the practices of the Republican Party … if we submit to them, it will be our fault and not theirs.”

Mississippi’s Declaration of Secession: “Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.”

More relevant issue here, as the father of an African-American high school senior who is considering UA, I can understand some of the OP’s trepidation. My son is very liberal, he identifies with the the tree-hugging, gay rights, anti-war and anti-globalization wing of liberalism. In his view global warming/climate change is the greatest moral issue facing us today. In any event, given our ethnicity I for one was especially hesitant about putting UA on our target list. The only reason we chose to do so was because of the generous merit aid. Initially, my son’s first preference was to only consider colleges that had a definite liberal bias as we live in a typical suburban Texas school district and most of his fellow classmates are overwhelmingly conservative. (Relevant here I should state that those political leanings of his classmates has never resulted in any dispute or acrimony.)

In any event, we visited UA in March during its last “University Mondays” and my son felt comfortable at the school. That visit was simply a one-day visit however so my son will be attending the Honors Academy from July 19-25 to truly determine if UA is the right fit for him. Our impressions based on that one-day visit was that the atmosphere at UA is very similar to that at his high school - the campus appeared to be somewhat conservative, but not stifling or suffocating for those with more leftist views. Its true as pointed out in several post above that a majority of the incoming class to UA is from outside of Alabama - I think the student body is only 49% Alabamans. However, it should be noted that most of those kids are from other Southern states - Florida, Georgia, Louisiana and Texas. It is true that there are a sizable number of students from outside of the South; however, the student body and culture is reflective of the South - which isn’t necessarily a bad thing either. I think you will find that the staff and students are very welcoming and friendly, which might be a culture shock in its own for someone from outside the South.

Respecting political orientation, I really think that its a matter of perspective. There are certainly progressive or liberal groups on campus such as Blount, Mallet, and so on, but UA is not like The University of Texas at Austin - a relatively progressive college campus in a very red conservative state. (It certainly isn’t Oberlin, but really other than Cal which flagship public school really is?) If you are looking for a student body with a definite liberal, left-wing bias than UA probably is not the right fit for you. However, if (as with my son) you are progressive who is somewhat use to navigating a student body with a majority political conservative leanings, then I think you might want to check UA out with a campus visit. After being firm about not wanting to consider any colleges that did not have a clear liberal bias, my son has changed his mind after we did a number of college visits. In addition to UA, now my son is also considering Texas A&M, another school with a definitive conservative tilt. He was invited to go to A&M as a part of their program to recruit potential National Merit Scholars. Prior to that visit he was dead set against applying to A&M which the Princeton Review listed as being among the top ten most conservative schools. However, earlier this summer he was invited to A&M’s National Scholar Invitational and he spent the night on campus, met several kids whom he “clicked with” and now A&M is on our short list.

In sum, I recommend that you spend your time this summer being open to all options. If it is practical, you should try to visit the colleges to get a personal feel for whether the university would be the appropriate fit for you, we found that the college guidebook summaries came to different conclusions than our own personal experiences. UA has many great programs for high-achieving students, which I assume you are as they are over-represented here on College Confidential. So long as you are willing to entertain going to a campus which is not necessarily left-leaning, then UA could be a great option to consider. I think my son’s views on UA will really crystallize after the Honors Academy visit. Good luck with your college search process.

I find it interesting that people only focus on one motive for secession, and ignore the fact that Lincoln did not invade and violently attack the South to free slaves. So yes, slavery influenced secession, but slavery was not the reason Lincoln chose to attack. You can quote Confederate leaders all you like but to be fair you should also provide the quotes from Lincoln that make it clear that he did not attack to free slaves. Somehow, people who demonize Southern secession forget that there five slave holding Union states and that Lincoln proposed keeping slavery forever legal in the South to entice it away from secession. Had Lincoln had his way, all of the Blacks would have been relocated to Africa. So save me the preaching about racism. The vast majority of Southerners did not own slaves. In fact, slavery repressed their earning power. Yet they bravely fought for the CSA, to protect their homes and familie, not to preserve slavery. You can’t just focus on the motives of Southern oligarchs.

Was the death of over 600,000 young men, and the massive destruction of Southern property worth it to prevent Southern independence? If slavery had not been a motive for secession, would you then still support Lincoln’s aggression? What justifies the violent response to secession, something the founding fathers believed was a right? If you say slavery, fine, but again, that was not Lincoln’s motive.

I should have added, that Southerners, including some Blacks , fought with intense passion, and courage, despite being massively outnumbered by the Union troops. That passion did not come from a desire to preserve slavery.

So you don’t see the irony of arguing over the causes of the Civil War on a thread from OP about whether UA is welcoming for a student who professed a desire to not attend any school in a state that flew the Confederate flag?

Maybe you should join the Avanti recruitment team. :slight_smile:

This “exchange” should have ended with the actual text of the state declarations I mentioned above, at least it did so with me.

@Atlanta68, please don’t take my lack of a substantive response above as an indication that I would not like to be further educated about the morality of the Confederates’ cause. I especially would like to learn more about the war crimes committed by Mr. Lincoln during The War of Northern Aggression. :slight_smile:

Okay. All interesting discussions, but I think we are a little off topic from the original posters concerns and comments. I believe she’s not looking for historical info, but current, relevant, and accurate info that will help her daughter make an informed decision.

I think we reached to the conclusion that Bama will be a good fit for the OP’s daughter

I can’t say with certainty that UA is as conservative as Alabama as a whole (class of 2019!), but as a liberal born and raised in Alabama, I can tell you about my experiences with the people who live here. Are most people here conservative? Yes. However, most people don’t really discuss politics with each other in normal situations. Anytime I’ve participated in discussions about politics, most people are respectful and can get their points across without being hostile. And as someone else said, a good chunk of people here vote Democrat. Even in my small town there are kids in my school with views similar to mine.
With all of the out of state students at UA now, there is probably a nice range of political views on campus. And even if students at UA vote the same way Alabama residents do, being around people who think differently than you do probably isn’t the worst thing that could happen to a person (as long as said people are respectful!). Roll tide!

Thank you @robotbldmom and @paul2752 , I concur that it’s at least worth a close look, and appreciate the sharing of so many individual and detailed insights about the school.

I think “fit” is a somewhat subjective determination. I can’t say for certain whether Bama would be a good fit or not for OP’s daughter. I really think that if a student is on a fence then they should try (if possible) to visit the school themselves and form their own impressions.

I can say that similar to OP, my son expressed very clear definite preferences at the outset of the college search process. Preferences very similar to the OP’s daughter as he expressed an intent to only attend a college with a predominately left-leaning student body. We then visited a number of schools, including some that did not fall within that left-leaning student body categorization, such as The University of Alabama. After our Bama visit, my son concluded that the preference he expressed earlier regarding the political leanings of the prospective college was out-weighted by the educational opportunities he would have at Bama in the Honors College, Blount Undergraduate Initiative and, of course, the generous merit aid.

I can’t say for certain if the OP’s daughter will make the same conclusion. For some kids, the opportunity to attend a college with a student body whose social-political views on a whole match their own personal ideology is the number one priority. Those kids find the right “fit” at schools like Oberlin on one hand, and Liberty University on the other. However, if the liberal prospective student is willing to operate outside their comfort zone, then Bama could be a great fit for them. Due to the sheer numbers of a flagship public university, there will be other like-minded students on campus and kids these days are much more tolerant of opposing ideals even when they don’t agree with them. Moreover, not sharing the prevailing or default campus sentiment doesn’t mean your voice is stifled rather it means you simply have to shout louder, and when you do you have to provide rational reasons in support of your position - and that’s skill worth learning as it keeps you intellectually honest.

@fatherof2boys I think your views have been expressed thoughtfully and thoroughly, and I also enjoyed the above discussions. I agree that the OP’s daughter Must visit to make an informed decision for herself. However, I think if she has an open mind, then she should be able to value the UA educational opportunites and the UA community as a whole.

@fatherof2boys you make excellent points and I think all students this age benefit from exposure to as many different environments and points of view as possible. Would be a shame for them to lock their 17-year-old perceptions in for life and have a comfort zone the size of a teacup. That’s what going away to college is all about, right?

Exactly @ohiovalley16. I know that my own thoughts on certain issues, such as free trade were influenced in large part by the dialogue I had as an undergrad with my economics professor and fellow students. That’s one of a few issues that I don’t subscribe to the liberal orthodoxy on and it makes for very interesting “debates” with my anti-globalization son, especially considering recent events of a potential Trans Pacific Partnership trade pact in the news.

I don’t necessarily want my son’s views on trade policy to be changed to mirror mine; however, I do think that he, as all young people, would benefit from being in an intellectual environment that challenges and questions what he believes. Although I also understand the sentiment underlying your post. When we first seriously started considering Bama I had two main concerns as follows: (1) would my leftist child will find a “critical mass” of like-minded students at Bama?; (2) Will he be comfortable enough to express his personal views free of intimidation, ridicule and coercion?

The rational answer to both of these questions is an unqualified “yes” and I know that many on this forum who already have kids at Bama find such questions either humorous and/or insulting but when you are coming to grips with the prospect of sending your first child to attend college across state lines to attend a university, these are the types of irrational concerns that come to mind. Basically, will he/she fit in and not be treated as an outsider due to their views.

If you have these same concerns @ohiovalley16 let me tell you that everything I’ve learned from participating in this forum, the Facebook pages and the results of our own visit to the campus and numerous discussions with our state recruiter has allayed those fears. I suspect the Honors Academy program will confirm the same. Therefore, if your daughter doesn’t mind having to swim against the current now and then, Bama might just be the place for her. Good luck to you and your daughter on the college search process.

fatherof2boys, I don’t believe anyone, other than those with an ideological predisposition to demonize the South, would have a problem with historical truth. So, yes, if the OP has a daughter who is determined to believe that the South has a monopoly on racism or that the Confederate flag represented nothing more than slavery, then yes, she probably should not come to Alabama. Oh by the way, did you know General Grant owned slaves, during the war? General Lee, on the other hand, did not. Go ahead and ignore the other side, but be prepared for a proud Southerner to offer the other side. I don’t follow your last point about the state declarations. I never denied that the CSA oligarchs were pro slavery and I believe that slaverypowerfully influenced a number of the Southern states’ decisions. They were worried that slavery would be outlawed at some point, and they were not ready to end that institution. However, what bothers me is that you pretend that the war was about slavery, when it most definitely was not. And you ignore the non slavery reasons for secession.

How could the Civil War be about slavery when five of the Union states had slaves and when General Grant had slaves? And when Lincoln proposed making slavery forever legal in the South? The Emancipation Proclamation did not free any Northern slaves. It was a ploy to keep Britain from fighing for the South.

Robotbldmom, I know that some are offended by my historical revisionism, but honestly, if someone has preconceptions of the South and its heritage, isn’t a little exposure to the other side important to share? We, including most Southerners, have been indoctrinated to only consider the Northern, anti secession side of the war. And too many have no idea that the Union side was not free of slaves, or that Lincoln promised to keep slavery forever legal to entice the South not to secede. This doesn’t mean I like all that the CSA represented.

It’s a large university with all sorts of differing views and opinions. But at the end of the day, they all agree on one thing–they’re gonna win on Saturday.

^^^ HAHA, so true!!!

@atlanta68 @fatherof2boys I think there is always room for discourse and opposing viewpoints. After all, I believe that good, respectful debates are one of the major components of education. UA’s students will provide plenty of differing opinions. For those interested, there are debate teams that are highly regarded at UA.

@Atlanta68 I think we just have different perspectives on this. I don’t believe its a winning strategy to convince progressive-minded students that they would be welcomed at UA by re-litigating the causes of the Civil War. That’s very backward looking, which is why the governor decided to voluntarily remove the Confederate flag from the capitol and the Mobile, Alabama’s city council has decided to remove it from the city seal.

I think the better argument here is about the new UA and even the new Alabama which is part of a greater trend in the South as a whole to market itself as the place of innovation and job growth prepared to compete on the global stage in a diverse world economy. That does not mean that the past is forgotten, it simply means the future is not defined by it.

But heck, as someone who believes in the benefits of diversity, including differing viewpoints, I certainly do respect your opinions on this matter and your fundamental right to express them - even though I may not agree with them.

I don’t really think she would be happiest here, to be honest. The school is by no means some crazy racist hotbed, but I definitely have experienced way more racism during my two years at Alabama than I have my entire life. A big part of that though had to do with being involved in Greek life, and I will admit that the Greek life has definitely gotten significantly less racist over the past couple of years. The only big problems are the guys in the top tier, super southern fraternities. I would say that Bama is more progressive than the rest of the state, since there are more and more Northerners coming each year. However, the culture and attitudes are still pretty different from what I’m used to. As for wanting the big city vibe, Tuscaloosa sadly does not have that. It’s one of those small towns that would cease to exist without the college. That being said, it’s not a completely horrible town- there are some great restaurants and cute boutiques, but just not a whole lot of excitement or trendy things like you’d find in a big city.

@sunshine341 I really don’t think that you can make the assessment that the OP’s daughter would not be happy at The University of Alabama.

I hate to say it but I don’t agree with your assessment of Tuscaloosa. I live in a suburb of a Huge city, so you would necessarily think that there would be a lot of spillover of “city type” activities into my suburb, but there is not. Actually, some would say that I live in a small city and not a suburb, since the population of my county is 1.5 million people and Tuscaloosa’s county is about 200,000 people. However, my point is that I often find more to do when I am in T-town than in my own “hometown”. The University of Alabama and Tuscaloosa, offers plenty in the way of “entertainment”. There are many sporting events, musical concerts, lecture series and plays. There are several museums and their various events and gallery shows. There are events which are hosted by either the university or the city of Tuscaloosa. Most of these events are open to students, residents and visitors at either free or nominal costs. And let’s not forget all the natural areas with both bike and walkable trails. I also find that the restaurants in T-Town are less expensive, and more varied than even in my hometown. That is not to say that I can’t drive an hour or more (depending on traffic/time of day) into the big city and eat at some of the best restaurants in the world, but who can afford to do that often. I think Tuscaloosa offers a very good mix of local restaurants, entertainment, sports oriented functions, shopping, and affordability. Not to mention the pristinely kept and beautiful campus, or the walk along the Black Warrior River. Personally, I like the feel of the city of Tuscaloosa and its’ atmosphere, where the people are friendly, polite and respectful.

As for Greek Life, I am wondering why you would even get involved in Greek Life considering what you said about it? Unless the social aspects of Greek Life outweighed the detriments to you. Or are trying to force change from the inside out? If you are, then I applaud you for that. However, in my opinion, wouldn’t it be better to be independent, than tied to a group that ‘You, Yourself’ termed as “racist”.

I am sure that the Greek organizations host many social activities that appeal to their membership base, and I think that there are students who go Greek for additional reasons: socialization, pre-formed peer groups, networking, philanthropy. But before anyone joins these organizations, one has to realize that Greek organizations have had “issues” both here at UA, and at other campuses for a long time. I am sure that some of these issues are still ongoing, unresolved and need to be addressed. That’s why a student should probably weigh all the pros/cons.

However, prospective students should be aware that Greek organizations only make up approximately 1/3 of the undergraduate student population, which leaves approximately 2/3 of the undergraduate student body as independent. I would also suspect that that number might drop in the future, especially when prospective students learn about the sororities’ and fraternities’ financial costs.