<p>^HYPS of course. They are the answer to every question.</p>
<p>Before we send DRab out on his mission to find liberal colleges, I want him to keep in mind the principle of volume versus percentage. The sheer volume at Berkeley can make certain things- not necessarily political views- intimidating and overwhelming. Going to the public university debate, many students come to Berkeley as a money-saving proposition and thus do not have the wherewithal to choose a particular environment in line with their own views; a poor, conservative student who wishes to go to a private, historically conservative college might have to settle on Berkeley: certain, smaller, private colleges have the ability to self-select populations and the students with financial means have the ability to choose a college on campus life alone. And, lest we not forget, the historical "advantage" Berkeley has on just about every college in the nation. Those who come here are well aware of Berkeley's history and, for a select population of incoming students, this is the deciding factor as to why they came here. So, you also must factor in that population of "extreme" students (extreme in that they base their college selection on the prevailing political view of the campus environment). And finally, do not let cheap, commerical rankings (ugh) like Princeton Review direct you as to your ultimate list of 10-20 liberal colleges that you don't think is hard to find. Keep in mind that I offered voting habits of students and residents of the general population of the area, in addition to providing empirical evidence. </p>
<p>Best of luck on your search,
TTG</p>
<p>Hahahah CardinalFocused.
So so true on CC...</p>
<p>The only place in the US that will be comparably equal to, or more liberal than Berkeley is Massachusetts as a whole. So go figure.</p>
<p>UC Santa Cruise, Oberlin College, Bard College, and Vassar College come to mind. Honestly, it's really not that hard to find some. Huge numbers of LACs are more liberal than Berkeley is on a percentage basis, with a higher percentage of the extreme liberals as well.</p>
<p>Along with HYP....</p>
<p>My conservative daughter (non-meat-eating though) complains that UCSD is too liberal. Luckily she's in CS and the political biases of the professors don't really come up much in the engineering and science courses. They certainly do in many of the other courses though. There's also a bookstore on campus (not the main one) that some professors require students to buy through (only place they sell the required books for those professors' courses) that is blatantly very far left-leaning. </p>
<p>I second what DRab said regarding UCSC being very liberal.</p>
<p>Oh yes, UCSC is definitely MORE liberal than Berkeley and has more extreme liberalism than Cal, and is probably the most liberal university on the West Coast.</p>
<p>I don't know much about higher education in Washington or Oregon, but that may be the case. Also, a place like Pitzer College in Claremont may give it a run for its money (if you include "colleges," but the different is another discussion). Reed College may as well. Perhaps Scirpps, bur maybe not. And depending how East you go, there might be compentition. Pomona is fairly liberal but probably cannot compare to these other places.</p>
<p>Read Post 22 again. You cannot go by percentage alone for the reasons I listed in Post 22. Again, I don't care about what percentage of students claim to be liberal. This may be an idicator, but not representative of what students have to deal with on a daily basis (I dubbed it "ground level" experience, third time term used). A number of colleges were listed and yet they're all unsubstantiated with the exception of UCSC (although bolding some letters and claiming it's "more liberal" is not saying much). I don't see how you can say a certain college has more extreme liberals, given that you did not provide anything to support your claim. </p>
<p>Still not convinced,
Berkeley is still #1 (in Liberalism),
TTG</p>
<p>ttgiang15, why don't you investigate yourself? I'm convinced and you're the skeptic. Perhaps the burden of proof is on me, but I'm apathetic, I read your post multiple times (not really understanding what your points were), and am convinced enough myself.</p>
<p>Whoa, whoa. You cannot be the one convinced, since I made the initial argument and you're the one who chimed in and made a strong, ridiculous, and unsubstantiated arguments that suggest otherwise. You've made several posts, with equally confident statements, to the tune of conclusiveness:</p>
<p>"In addition, I don't think it's that hard to find 10-20 more liberal schools than Berkeley, and even more than that wouldn't be too difficult."
"Honestly, it's really not that hard to find some."</p>
<p>And yet you've provided absolutely nothing, aside from an assortment of colleges that may or may not be as liberal as Berkeley: we don't know, because you simply neglect to show evidence. When you post on these boards, you better be sure that (1) you can defend your position to the death or (2) be willing to admit wrong if you weren't confident enough in your original statement. There's a reason why I haven't hit 600 posts: I make darn sure whatever I'm saying is legitimate or else I don't bother posting at all. It's not nice to spread rumors. If you simply cannot find evidence to support your claims, why not just take them back or revise them? 4800 posts mean nothing if you can't argue for each and every one.</p>
<p>Regards,
TTG</p>
<p>While my arguments may be characterized as "strong" (although they are hardly bold) and "unsubstantiated" at the moment (at least in this thread), I really don't think they're ridiculous. Classify as you will.</p>
<p>I think I satisfy both of your criteria, I'm just to lazy to deal with your demands. What part of apathetic isn't clear? Believe what you will.</p>
<p>Cheers.</p>
<p>Then don't post if you don't care about what you write. Sure, it's understandable that after so many posts it's not uncommon that one becomes "apathetic," as you will. As a current Berkeley student, you have some responsibility as you may be seen in some eyes as a good source of information. Whatever you write will have some effect on others' decision-making processes, and most often the impact will be played out elsewhere, beyond these boards. You cannot claim no fault after making faulty arguments.</p>
<p>I invested some time in bringing forth some points I felt were worth mentioning. And then you came along and haphazardly rebuffed "Nah, you're kinda wrong" and then nothing else. I'm not sure what criteria you've supposedly met. All I know is that you've used apathy and laziness as excuses, while taking a jab by classifying my questioning as "demands." You couldn't be so naive as to think that making one post as argument is the end of all things (especially considering you provide no evidence in that initial post)? That it's not subject to being called into question?</p>
<p>TTG</p>
<p>I didn't say I didn't care about what I write, I said I didn't care about appeasing you (at the moment). I am aware of what you say, really. I don't need a lecture from you. I also don't need the seeming hypocrisy when in one sentence you say I jabbed at you and haphazardly rebuffed and in the next complain about what Ive said and classifying it negatively or calling my arguments ridiculous. You made a 252 word post about what I should be looking for that wasn't quite clear. Where did you argue or make clear that percentage should not be used or isn't helpful? That actually seems incredibly important, as clearly Berkeley is quite large and if we're dealing with size alone, we're missing a huge aspect of reality, and based on percentages, youre far more likely to run into the average person if they comprise a huge percentage of the population (even if they dont comprise a large part of it compared to another place). Other arguments you make here seem incorrect or applicable to many other places making them irrelevant, such as people self-selecting other schools because of political ideology (do you think this is only true of Berkeley or more relevant here for some reason?) and the historical advantage other schools have. You also think that the voting patters of the community surrounding the area is very relevant. How is that so? Isn't most of the "on the ground" work going to be on the campus or in its buildings? While I do think it is relevant, it seems to be much less relevant than other factors, such as the students political leanings. You act as if you presented myriad evidence when in fact you presented what, three things? That Berkeley students tend to identify as liberal, tended to vote for a liberal president in the last election, and that this is true of the county (or city). It seems as though you actually didnt even present anything (other than your stories and opinions, which have their own value), but cited someone else who presented them. Is that all of you empirical evidence you include when you mention your empirical evidence?</p>
<p>
[quote]
126 (5.6%) Far left
1031 (45.7%) Liberal
830 (36.8%) Middle-of-the-road
254 (11.3%) Conservative
16 (0.7%) Far right
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This does only account for about a tenth of the campus at the time, if you didn't realize. I'm not sure what percentage of freshmen that was.</p>
<p>I really didn't disagree or even refer to most of your points, yet you characterize me as some unthinking person unaware of what the consequences of my actions will be who is quite antagonistic towards everything you say. Could you take it down a notch? Im not sure about you, but Im here to generally be friendly or at least respectful to people, and in parts of your post, I really dont feel youre treating me with any respect. I'll dig up what I can find in due time, but until then, it would be nice to not be attacked.</p>
<p>Anyway, ttg, what evidence do you have that Berkeley is the most liberal college? A lack of any evidence that other colleges are more liberal based on what seem to be your main criteron, ground level interaction (comprised of population voting patterns) and student voting patterns? Do you have data for any other school in the world prior to this point?</p>
<p>Berkeley isn't overly liberal. I'm probably one of the most politically incorrect people you'll ever meet. That's not to say I'm out and out racist, bigoted, or insensitive. I just think sometimes the 'PC dialogue' doesn't get to the point and you need to attack probelms at the roots rather than look at the face value and there are heavy double standards in the world of political correctness. Sure, not being totally PC gets me in trouble sometimes, but my ideas are reasoned from experience, living in other countries, and seeing how other parts of the world work. And since there was about 2000 students polled in that, I'd say that's about a little more than half to 2/3 of the Freshman class. Isn't there like 3000-3500 freshman each year? There are a lot of factors that affect your political views too. Many of the kids come from secular, middle-class families, which tend to be more moderate and liberal. </p>
<p>Experiences also shape political views. I think they should take a poll and look at the outgoing seniors as a comparison. I wonder how many more liberals and conservatives you'll find in that group, since the senior class is much larger. Many of my friends that have been at Cal a long time, or transfered from Community Colleges tend to lean a bit more to the right than the general freshman population, or so it seems. There is definitely a correlation between education level of the parents and the tendency towards Left or Right. Berkeley also probably attracts more students that identify themselves a liberal and moderate.</p>
<p>The problem with the poll is it only looks at the Freshman Class and not the general student body, so I don't think it is really indicative of the leanings of the university's student body. Agan, I'd be curious to see how many seniors identify as liberal, moderate and conservative, in comparison to the Freshmen.</p>
<p>Fourth time: "Ground Level" experiences, that is, what one experiences in conversations, in class, and at general on-campus activities. Responding to an online survey behind closed doors is not an accurate representation of what the campus environment is like. It's one thing to fill in the bubble "Conservative," it's another to turn that into physical expression. For example: Consider a school with 50/50 Conservatives/Liberals, and yet only 25% of Conservatives are active and 100% of Liberals are active- which is going to be more present at the "ground level?" Those "expressions" I've mostly experienced at Berkeley has been heavily in favor of those courteous enough to share their liberal viewpoints. And so while some 12% of the student population identify themselves as Conservatives (which, by any measure, is not a lot), if one does not sense that physical manifestion then what is the use of statistics? To try to quantify something that seemingly is at-odds with one's personal experiences? Something's gotta give. I've provided situations where Conservatism is met with a certain stigma on campus, and therefore I have at several times brought up the word "fear." The OP asked if he was "screwed" by the fact that he's Conservative. There is an element of anxiety there, a worrying that I contest carries over once you become a student. If anything, the "fear" factor is made worse once one arrives at Berkeley. This is why I presented the case with ASUC elections. It is a measure of how much confidence the Berkeley College Republicans has in the student body. One candidate, one. This is why voting is important. It is the physical act of declaring one's viewpoint. Compare this to what somewhat identifies himself with on Facebook or OSR (which I didn't participate in, by the way) and you can see why it has more significance than other data. As to Berkeley being the most liberal college, here is what I originally wrote as a concluding statement in Post 17: "However, my justification for calling Berkeley "very liberal" is that you'd be hard pressed to find many more colleges more liberal than Berkeley." Notice that I did not say "most liberal" or anything to that nature until I heard incomplete arguments that failed to identify any other college (let alone 10 or 20) more liberal than Berkeley; I felt entitled to use "most liberal" thereafter. Don't flip this around. Citing that I having presented "what, three things" is still much more than zero, unless you include those worthless student surveys. Here, you've turned the table and accused me of being hypocritical for providing such a limited set of data. Wait. Who's the hypocrite?</p>
<p>Lastly, a lot of what I said in Post 34 was dictated by your explicit use of the word "apathetic." Here is the context: "I'm just to lazy to deal with your demands. What part of apathetic isn't clear?" However, saying that you are indifferent or without emotion does not make much sense here. Are you lazy and not willing to bring up data because you are indifferent (I took that to mean "don't care")? There was confusion there that led to things that wouldn't have been said had the word "apathetic" not been used there. And the nature of my post was such to respond to the way the word was used in that sentence: another strong statement, on your part.</p>
<p>Regards,
TTG</p>
<p>According to Facebook Pulse, seven percent of Berkeley females have very liberal political views. There ya go.</p>
<p>"Agan, I'd be curious to see how many seniors identify as liberal, moderate and conservative, in comparison to the Freshmen."</p>
<p>I havent seen any data specific to Berkeley students, however it has been proven in many surveys of students in universites across the nation that college has a liberalizing effect on an individual. When they survey students in each year (freshman, soph, junior, etc.), they notice a pattern of students becoming more liberal. Thus, i would assume that the seniors at Cal are more liberal than the incoming freshmen, as opposed to your assumption of the opposite.</p>