Is Bicker Really This Unappealing?

<p>Oh Byerly, you really are working overtime on the Princeton board at this time of year! It's hard not to notice that every time there is a new negative post from an unknown poster, it's followed within minutes by your reinforcing commentary. </p>

<p>You're beginning to look paranoid with your Princeton bashing, Byerly. If you are so very confident that no one would consider turning down Harvard for any other school (particularly Princeton!) why are you spending so much time here?</p>

<p>Still, as I said before, you do provide a certain entertainment value and you certainly are giving those of us who actually attended Princeton and who know something about it, an opportunity to set the record straight! Thanks (I think) for that.</p>

<p>Now, on the very slim chance that the Morelhighground is not Byerly, let me at least point out that poor behavior will always be found among a small group of undergraduates anywhere. The Boston police had some very interesting things to say about the immature behavior of Harvard undergraduates at 2004’s Harvard-Yale football game. In the words of one, “[a]lthough he could not be reached for comment last night, Evans [of the Boston Police] told The Crimson two weeks ago that he was “embarassed [sic] to be a police officer on that field seeing what I had to see.” According to The Crimson, “This year’s Game saw ejections for underage drinking, a record number of students treated for alcohol-related problems and complaints of public urination and unruly conduct.”</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=504911%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=504911&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=504732%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=504732&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=504093%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=504093&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>While I certainly don't assume that the behavior of those hooligans at the Harvard-Yale game (and those Harvard undergrads who broke into Princeton dorm rooms after the Princeton-Harvard game) is characteristic of all Harvard undergrads, you shouldn't assume that the drinking games and behavior of a small number of students at Princeton provides much of an insight into that institution.</p>

<p>Great Googling! And kudos for your spirited response, even if it is a bit off the point.</p>

<p>Just don't join the eating clubs if it makes you uncomfortable. It's pretty simple and plus you won't be the only one who doesn't want to do the things they ask you to do.</p>

<p>MHG.....first congrats on your D's wonderful acceptances.
You have come on this board a new member seeking advice or clarification but at the same time you seemed to have reached some conclusions about Princeton already. Why not tell us what your daughter's interests are and let some weigh in whether or not the orange bubble would be a good fit. As a parent who lives close by and visits frequently I have found Princeton to be quite diverse with room for all points of view. Most important of all it is a campus full of students who are glad they chose Princeton for their undergraduate years. Whatever mindset your daughter seeks on campus she will find. As a large university Princeton can offer courses she might never have considered taking. I urge your family to go to April Hosting where of course Princeton puts their "best foot forward" then get back to us and tell us what you found. Last year my son who was accepted to Amherst, Williams and Columbia was blown away by the atmosphere on campus. See "This Side of Princeton" on pre-frosh Friday night as it will make you rethink some presupps who might have.</p>

<p>Morel you are correct that the majority of articles in that section were about religion. As several students have pointed out, the issue had a religion theme. Last week the issue had an arts theme, and that's where the arts story mentioned appeared. Evidently every week the "street" section has a different theme. It would be inappropriate to conclude that a particular week's theme represented an obsession of some sort on the part of students at Princeton.</p>

<p>sorry I did not notice the theme. Nonetheless I was still concerned that they took the theme of religious morality from a relatively one sided viewpoint. If that was the theme fine. However I am very pleased to see that this Ivy is run by so many female deans. My daughter is very artistic and does not want to be trapped in an old fashioned puritanical setting. The religious articles startled me at first and still concern me (albeit to a lesser degree). By the way is Princeton the first Ivy to have a predominately female administration? I have a son who is a freshman in HS and while I am not sure I would send him to Pton I think this would be a good place for my D. But still can anyone comment on the article I posted?</p>

<p>1) "Old fashioned puritanical" is not Pton at all.
2) Why would you think that females in admin are better for your d than your s? Get a grip as diversity and equal opportunity rule all worthwhile organizations.
3) Yes, the president of Pton is a woman (its first) but she is also the first scientist to have the job.</p>

<p>I have yet to go through the bicker process, although I am almost certain that I will. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, then fine, don't participate, you WILL find your niche, be it an a university organization, sport, or independent housing in Spellman.</p>

<p>Saying that, every bicker process is distinct. To a poster above, the ONLY club that makes students drink each other's vomit is TI. If you don't want to do that, simple. Don't bicker TI. The girl who hurt herself fell down a set of stairs. It happens, and it's unfortunate, and now that club (Terrace) isn't open to non-members, which sucks. </p>

<p>Bicker gets a bad reputation because, for better or worse, it is alcohol-fuelled, and bad stuff will happen. Saying that, I haven't heard anyone say that they regret their bicker experience at all. As with pledging a frat, it is the best time you will never want to have again. I am looking forward to it.</p>

<p>Wsox I was just saying how the fact that Pton has 8 out of 14 female deans is good because I have a daughter. It is my understanding that this translates into the campus atmosphere. I was not saying it was a negative. Yes she is a scientist and that is also good. I was not claiming Pton was "old fashioned puritanical" I was saying that is what I do not wish for my D.</p>

<p>I was more curious with your remark that Pton is not suitable for your son. Too many women? Maybe he can go to school with Larry Summers!</p>

<p>Princeton is the most heavily male Ivy, while two of the last three Harvard classes have been majority female.</p>

<p>One of the reasons a girl might like to go to school there. Women in management, boys aplenty.</p>

<p>It is getting so PC these days that you find yourself giving a complement and must retract it. Alumother well said- Princeton Women in management, good for my D.
As for my S I worry that his un PC humor will be heavily prosecuted in a Women in management environment. He is an artist, comedian and writer I think he needs a less PC policed place to rest and grow an environment may I say more forgiving of males. And before wsox throws me out of here I would like to say he is entitled to think and grow without the kind of pressure I feel right now as I awkwardly compose this posting. Last week he gave me a book called " Muzzled " for my birthday. Need I say more? Lighten up please Wsox.</p>

<p>Morel...You seem genuinely concerned about Pton and good for you. It is just that I don't know or why you would think it is a more heavily "PC policed place" or less "forgiving of males" than any comparable elite institution. If you make the remark solely because of the composition of the administration, I think that is very bad reasoning. Good luck with your choices!</p>

<p>Byerly..."heavily male" with 52/48 split? I think you are stretching to counter Larry's foot in the mouth.</p>

<p>Morelhighground, I don't think it's necessary for anybody to be persuaded to attend Princeton, because the chances are they won't be admitted. That's true for everybody. Having said that, I would suggest you take a look here <a href="http://www.nassauweekly.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nassauweekly.com&lt;/a> for just one example of the humor that is very much present on the Princeton campus. You should also know that many students on campus think the administration is stuffy. Here is an expression of that from one of the Daily Prince's humor columnists: <a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2005/04/29/opinion/12812.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2005/04/29/opinion/12812.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In the course of doing more research on Princeton, I came across a couple of reports from the Council of the Princeton University Community discussing Freshman Social Life (<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Evp/cpuc/Reports/FSE%20report.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/~vp/cpuc/Reports/FSE%20report.pdf&lt;/a&gt;) and the general Princeton experience (<a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eprovost/PU_Exp_2003_UG.pdf)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eprovost/PU_Exp_2003_UG.pdf)&lt;/a>. The results were fairly negative. The greek life seems to be on the ascendancy and a growing percentage of students had negative views on the eating clubs. A major conclusion was that "when asked what made them feel the least comfortable[at Princeton], students most commonly cited social factors associated with eating clubs and the Street as well as feeling a sense of social isolation as a result of 'exclusiveness.'"</p>

<p>Then why does Princeton score highest on the happy kids test? i.e. COFHE etc?</p>

<p>Ephesus, I don't see the first report as "fairly negative" at all. I don't know where you're getting that. It is a report by a committee that is seeking to see what works and what doesn't on campus. It is also outdated, because the administration has responded to it. Re having a "pomp and circumstance" event during freshman week, there is now a Pre-rade, inspired by the very popular alumni P-rade that takes place at reunions. As for the increase in interest in fraternities and sororities, this is happening at many schools. There has been considerable media coverage of the fact that women at Harvard, for example, are increasingly seeking to join sororities. When we visited Yale the adcom announced that the frats had great parties. </p>

<p>The nice thing about Princeton is that the parties on the Street are open to all. </p>

<p>If a student is friendly, fun to be around, and active in one of the major extracurricular activities, he or she will not be isolated on the Princeton campus.</p>

<p>I can't access your second link.</p>

<p>Sorry on the second link, I will try again. The site for the general undergraduate report is <a href="http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eprovost/PU_Exp_2003_UG.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/%7Eprovost/PU_Exp_2003_UG.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Thanks. I've seen this report before and don't have time to reread it in detail right this minute, but I don't see it as a negative document; again, it represents the findings of an institution that is always seeking to find out how it's doing and how to improve, and it dates back to 2003. That might not seem so long ago, but Princeton has changed dramatically in the past 4 years. I hear that often from students. There has been a huge increase in diversity and in activities on campus other than the Street. With the 4-year colleges, it will continue to change. You've heard from students on these boards who say the clubs are fun and there are lots of other things to do.</p>