<p>DS, currently a hs junior and interested in physics, has started his college visits, and so far has gravitated towards colleges with departments that are smaller in size (<25 faculty and <100 undergrads). DS goes to a smaller high school (120 in his grade) and likes the personal attention that comes with that, thus his liking of smaller departments. DH feels that he should be leaning towards larger departments thinking that they will have the most opportunities for research, broader range of faculty, etc. My thought is that there will be opportunities no matter where he goes, and that he should pick based on what feel right for him. </p>
<p>Anyone else's children feel similarly? Did you find that bigger is better, or not so much?</p>
<p>DD attends one of those smaller schools. The school is primarily undergrads with only a few grad department, a business school and a law school. There are more opportunities for her as an UNDERGRAD to do things like research than there would be at most schools that have grad programs…I would think.</p>
<p>Also, my kiddo didn’t want to have to navigate a LARGE school. She wanted more “personal attention” and the smaller school gave her that.</p>
<p>I’m not sure big is better…it’s just different.</p>
<p>S went to a very small college. More math/physics courses than he could possibly attend. Lots of opportunities for research. Also, he was able to take leadership positions in ECs that he probably wouldn’t have been able to do at larger school. S felt at home in his house, and with several friends from outside interests. He may recognize people outside his house, but he’s not so sociable that he missed out on anything. For grad school, he’ll probably wander into a larger school, but he will probably interact with less people.</p>
<p>My frosh son wouldn’t give up his undergrad-only STEM-LAC (student body <800) for anything. Loves the feeling of family and the nurturing environment, finds the profs highly accessible and the individual attention very helpful, and is confident he’s going to have opportunities he’d never get in the local public’s Honors college. In the short time he’s had there, he’s done things most undergrads wouldn’t get a chance to do in the larger school. I think he also likes it that, in a pinch, he can roll out of bed 15 minutes before a class starts and arrive showered and on time.</p>
<p>OTOH, one of his good friends from high school is now a senior at said local public’s Honors college and is thriving. She lives at home and commutes. Loves the sense of freedom and independence she has on a very large campus where she makes her own curriculum decisions. Has had a couple of great summer internships. Plans to transition from her student job to a staff job and use the benefits to fund an MBA.</p>
<p>I think it depends on personalities and what the student wants.</p>
<p>“Necessarily” is the key word. “Always” and “never” are also very strong words. There are usually exceptions to rules.</p>
<p>In general I would favor a school with grad depts in the field of interest for a science major- the opportunities to work in grad labs and see what grad student life is like. Most smaller schools tend to be focused on liberal arts, there won’t be as many science types to associate with. Larger schools tend to have more courses available in a field and those related to one’s major. I would avoid schools where there is a combined “science dept” or major in computer science at a school without its dept separate from the math dept if I were interested in grad school level studies eventually. Sometimes it is the level of the courses- eg being able to take grad level math courses while still an undergrad.</p>
<p>It all comes down to the best fit. Many more factors than just one’s major. Some thrive at a large school and get to know professors early on.</p>
<p>I’ll just give my dh’s line - in science - at least in his field which is cancer research - he can’t think of anyone who does research he considers worth following that teaches at an LAC. He doesn’t think most undergrads know of enough science to be particularly useful. He wants real grad students in his lab, because they do the bulk of the research while he writes grants, writes papers and gives talks. </p>
<p>That said, I think you can still learn a lot of science at an LAC. When he was a grad student at Caltech there were students with both university and LAC backgrounds they both seemed to do fine. Make sure the department is big enough, that enough courses are taught every year and that you run out of advanced enough courses.</p>
<p>I think one of the benefits of going to a school with a larger department (more profs and more students) is that it’s easier to avoid a prof you don’t like.</p>
<p>There is small and small. Caltech is small and Bowdoin is small. But Caltech is about math and science and Bowdoin is not. So the number of students in physics and the opportunities for doing physics as Caltech are going to be different than at Bowdoin.
That said, unless the student is very advanced, a large number of small LACs will provide top-notch opportunities for studying physics. Look for LACs that have strong math departments such as Carleton and Williams as well as more math/sciences schools such as Caltech or Harvey Mudd College.</p>
<p>to answer your question - is bigger necessarily better - in a word - no.</p>
<p>Some students will flourish in a smaller environment, others will enjoy the much larger environment. There are no absolutes. Every student is different. If your S is gravitating toward smaller colleges / depts, I would not discourage him</p>
<p>There are also “mid-sized” schools known both for their science programs and their more personalized attention, where your S could get the best of both worlds. University of Rochester is one, for example. Undergraduates there do a lot of research, and their science programs are top-notch.</p>
<p>Like most things in life, there doesn’t have to be an “either-or”.</p>
<p>I don’t think there’s a clear cut answer because I think it’s as much about the student and the experiences they are looking for and how actively they seek out those opportunities as the structure at the school. </p>
<p>DD started out in a small department at a large university and also in honors college track, which included small, very personal seminars. Sophomore year a young professor in a large department course in her minor (at the time) talked about research opportunities in his lab. She pursued the research opportunity as an undergrad working alongside grad students and loved it so much she added a second major. </p>
<p>Both departments have a graduate program but there were more opportunities for undergrads to get research experience with the large department. Her experience has been that the small department’s faculty was overcommitted between teaching and research that didn’t leave enough time for mentoring students while the younger faculty in the large department spent lots of time counseling and giving opportunities to undergrads. I will say though that part of it has to do with the faculty member being young because I understand that the faculty member is now not taking on additional undergrads because he has a full cohort of grad students to mentor.</p>
<p>some things to ask a dept about – who teaches, professors or grad students - and at what level courses? how easily can an undergrad get involved in research (don’t just look for a yes or no answer – ask what percentage of undergrad majors actually do so, at what point in their college career they do, and how they go about getting involved)? what fields are the professors involved in (are they ones your s is interested in)? also, a physics major will likely also take a lot of math courses – don’t forget to check how the math dept is as well.</p>
<p>a large department may well offer many opportunities – BUT many of those opportunities may be going to graduate students. see if your s can talk with undergrads in the program he is interested in to get their view of the department. </p>
<p>a “big name” department with “big name” professors may be less appealing if he finds out that he’ll spend a good part of his time in the major dealing most with grad student ta’s.</p>
<p>The funny thing about college is one thing doesn’t work for everyone. I am one of those people who thinks that you meet about the same number of people regardless of the size of the school and interactions with professors depend a lot on the student. One of my DD’s majors is physics (at Pitt–mid-sized). As a freshman, she feels very comfortable talking with her physics professor. She also met with two physics professors before making her decision to attend; the way she was treated on the day she visited had a lot to do with her decision. I think that you will find that physics departments are thrilled to have girls who are interested. She hopes to work in the department, but I am not sure how soon that will happen.</p>
<p>^^^ Good points above by unbelievablem. When we were doing college visits, DD had her heart set on one school. The deal breaker for her was the campus visit where she got the opportunity to sit down one on one with the Department Head for her department. When she asked about undergrad research, I could see across the room as her face fell. Not only did the Department Head respond that he’d only given that opportunity to “one or two” undergrads but the way in which he responded was so disheartening to her. It almost broke my heart to see her hopes dashed so abruptly. But things happen for a reason and she’s completely happy with where she is now. Beginning the process for grad school interviews now…and I keep telling her that she will know where the fit is just as she did the first go round.</p>
<p>As far as recommended ratios, that’s a tough one to put a number to I think because different faculty and grad programs have different mentoring styles and models. If you get the opportunity to talk to any undergrads or grad students involved in research in that department, you could ask how easy it is to get face time with their prof. DD talks about “big name” profs whose grad students say they very rarely see them because they have outside commitments.</p>
<p>I don’t think the ratios are so important as whether there is a culture of allowing undergrads to work in the lab. Caltech has twice as many grad students as undergrads, but I know they have organized programs in place for undergrad research. That said, there were never any undergrads working in the lab my husband was in at Caltech when he was a grad student there. I don’t know if no undergrads were interested in the work they did, or whether that professor didn’t take them.</p>
<p>I am biased towards smaller being better. I have seen too many kids go off to huge state schools and become lost amid the humanity. Its a completely different college experience than a mid-small school.</p>
<p>There are some kids who thrive in the big sports/greek/social scene, but its not for everyone.</p>