I can afford to give my children any advantage they may need, including the name on a building types of advantages, but choose not to. I understand the game and I have friends. I have also seen the destructive outcomes of this kind of parental ‘help.’ My kids will succeed or fail on their own.
7 Likes
Just curious when this was written?
It was published in 2020, looking at admissions right before the pandemic hit.
2 Likes
An interesting trend I have seen is legacies feeling more pressured to apply to their parents alma mater early if they have any interest at all. An applicant may like UPenn and Columbia equally, but if they exercise their legacy card early at Penn, they raise their chances from sub 5% to maybe 20% or more at that school. Kids who might have applied RD to see how it all shook out are now grabbing any hook they can. Or maybe Dartmouth-Princeton would be better examples, given this year’s weirdness at Penn.
2 Likes
Interesting. I think that might be changing. It used to be that kids really did raise their acceptance likelihood via legacy. Now, it seems that exists mainly thru ED. Many kids want to see outcomes. They like Mom/Dad’s school but want to see all of their options. Can be a tough call.
Just heard of a 4th gen student who didn’t get into a college. Grandma is very perturbed. So is Dad. They have given $$. This could change the landscape. IF people think legacy is going away, will they still give $? And as more and more attend college does it make sense to count legacy? Will colleges allow legacy to be cancelled and still allow others to benefit in various ways. Guess we’ll see.
2 Likes
The idea that, today, some mediocre legacy kid is getting in is a myth. The ones that do make it are incredibly accomplished in their own right. According to Harvard, average stats for legacy students are significantly higher than for the average accepted student. Maybe there was a time where the connection was all it took, but that is no longer the case. Should these students not get in just because a parent attended the school before them?
7 Likes
Yes, no mediocre kids are getting in. Legacy for top schools has always been higher because the parents are demographically not average. In the 1980’s, a tiny % of people held a college degree. Even today, the numbers are small when compared to the rest of the population. So yes, Harvard legacies are super strong and also super wealthy when compared to the average app.
I detest the idea of legacy. But I also detest ALL the check boxes. I’m in the minority. Most support holistic admissions, and support for various categories. Don’t think it’s going to change soon.
1 Like
Admitted legacies average a slightly higher SAT/ACT than non-legacy, but every other admission stat I am aware of except athletics is lower. One area that both sides of the Harvard lawsuit agreed on is being marked a legacy is associated with a large boost in chance of admission, among otherwise equally qualified applicants.
For example, in the study at http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/legacyathlete.pdf , the author’s model estimates than a White non-legacy with the following chance of admission would see the following increase in chance of admission at Harvard, if the only change in application was switching from non-legacy to being a single-parent legacy. All reader ratings and other aspects of the application remain the same.
Increased Chance of Admission Associated with Being a Harvard Legacy
If applicant had 1% chance of admit, increases to 8% chance
If applicant had 5% chance of admit, increases to 31% chance
If applicant had 10% chance of admit, increases to 49% chance
If applicant had 15% chance of admit, increases to 60% chance
The Harvard OIR internal report at Harvard internal report at http://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Doc-421-112-May-1-2013-Memorandum.pdf compares the admit rate for legacies to non-legacies with a similar 1-2 academic rating (similar stats) . Legacies with a 1-2 academic rating had a 55% admit rate compared to a 15% admit rate for non-legacies with same academic rating.
The paper at http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/divergent.pdf suggests that the supply of applying legacies remains fairly constant over time, and Harvard maintains a similar percentage of the class being legacies over time. This results in the admit rate for legacies remaining largely unchanged over the analyzed period, while the admit rate for unhooked has rapidly decreased. This makes the relative advantage of legacy compared to unhooked increase over time, suggesting the legacy advantage would be higher today than in the lawsuit analysis above.
That said, I agree that admitted legacies are generally excellent students and well qualified to be academically successful at Harvard. Harvard is selective enough that hook groups with a boost of this magnitude can be well academically qualified. Being a legacy is by no means a near guarantee of admission. If 55% of legacies with a 1-2 academic are accepted, that means nearly half of legacies with 1-2 academic rating are rejected.
9 Likes
Thank you for the details. And yes, it bumps you across the finish line as do other hooks but no one gets in “just because they are legacy.”
2 Likes
Some (perhaps many) of the legacies are very mediocre.
1 Like
Granted I do not know kids who’s parent donated buildings but the legacies I know are pretty incredibly accomplished. And for each one of those, I probably know another high achieving one who did not get accepted.
5 Likes
I don’t think so. There are so many stellar legacies, the schools can afford to be very picky.
4 Likes
Well, that’s not exactly true. And especially untrue if you throw in legacy candidates whose parent(s) also work at Harvard. Are you talking in 21-22 or in past years. If past years, I know of at least four families whose progeny were launched like a rocket into the admit pool(one double legacy with family of graduates, one Senior admin’s kid on the Z list another whose Dad ran a huge dept, the last whose double legacy parents donated 1 million in a timely manner so their daughter would be accepted. She was. ). Many others who likely got a bump, some very big bumps. Ask anyone who attended not only Harvard but other schools like Harvard about their class peers. You will hear many stories of the kids who weren’t exactly Nobel prize material but their Dad/Mom was a noted scholar or even a noted CEO. Right up and over the pole vault baby and into the admit pool.
2 Likes
Perhaps your experience is different. Many that I have seen are quite average. If unhooked kids have the profile that the legacies have, they’d easily land at least 20-30 ranks lower.
2 Likes
Some legacy students are lower and still get in. Many are in the range. Hard to generalize every legacy kid in the same bucket.
2 Likes
Being in the range is not the question. If my kid is “in the range” he would never get in. Being in range is a very low bar.
3 Likes
Faculty/staff students and Z group kids ( all of whom overlap with legacy often) have substantially higher admit rates everywhere. For examples of stellar legacy applicants not admitted, just check out the recent threads on Penn and Stanford admissions.
3 Likes
Well, I should clarify being the range of accepted students is different than being in the range of applicants. And there are some kids for whom the likelihood is higher than the published results.
1 Like
Half the campus is hooked in some form, and they play a significant part in determining the “range”. So I don’t know what it means to be in the range, if they determine the range :-). It becomes a circular argument in a way. Anyway – I should move on from this discussion.
They are very nice people by the way. We are good friends with several of them. And the kids are friends …
1 Like
I don’t know to whom you are referring, I’d gather something from earlier in the thread.
There are colleges who never have a student accepted to Harvard or other T10 schools on an annual basis and those for whom many kids attend each year. So there are definitely differences not only amongst the candidates but amongst the high schools.
I think more than 50% of the class is hooked. This is particularly true if you are counting URM, First gen, etc, etc. The number might be closer to 75-90%. And some kids can dip into many buckets.
2 Likes