<p>In fact I know plenty - and not one of whom actually failed. </p>
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<p>Did any of the students in those programs actually fail, as in, receive an F? No, not simply being cut for the program for receiving C+'s, but actually receive an F. </p>
<p>If not, then I think my point is proven - engineering is more difficult than the performing arts. I know I’ve never heard of many performing arts students actually receive F’s. </p>
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<p>And yet I can think of quite a few former engineering students who did switch to humanities students (having luckily made the switch before their engineering coursework might have expelled them). That’s because they were all interested in the humanities, right? If so, I wonder why they started in engineering in the first place. </p>
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<p>Uh, when did I ever say that people choose majors solely for the grading or the difficulty (or lack thereof)? Please point to the quote where I specifically said that.</p>
<p>What I said is that many students do indeed do so; surely you would not deny this notion.</p>
<p>The only schools where I could conceive of this happening are the specialized performing arts schools, which are a tiny fraction of the schools in the world. Even so, they can still transfer to another respectable school. After all, they didn’t actually flunk out. Their transcripts don’t display any F’s. </p>
<p>On the other hand, engineers actually do flunk out, which severely hinders them from transferring to any respectable school.</p>
<p>Which is why many good students who could have become decent engineers don’t even dare to major in engineering, simply because they don’t want to risk flunking out.</p>
In 1960, about 19 percent of people were in poverty. Today, about 12 percent of people are.</p>
<p>According to the U.S. Census Bureau and the 2002 American Community Survey, 52.7 percent of Americans have some college education, and 27.2 percent have actually obtained a degree. I couldn’t find data for 1960 but in the 1940s only 5% of people iver age 25 had a degree.</p>
<p>America typically has 4-5% unemployment, while Europe typically sees 7% unemployment (I am not considering recession figure).</p>
<p>sakky, the people I know who pick a major pick it due to interest in it, not which majors give the easiest grades. </p>
<p>When I asked if you know any architecture students, I wasn’t asking about failing…I was giving it as an example of VERY demanding courses…living in a studio practically 24/7. </p>
<p>You keep mentioning failing as the issue. </p>
<p>I already told you…who cares if you get an F…if you are cut from the school and have to leave…it is the same idea…you’re OUT. (and by the way, with engineering, I would imagine if you have one or two F’s, you switch majors before it comes time to flunking out of college all together, which takes more than an F or two). </p>
<p>If you mosey on over to the musical theater forum, you will find plenty of discussion over the years about “cut programs.” For example, at Boston Consevatory and Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music’s BFA in Musical Theater program, they evaluate students after the first and after the second year and you can be cut from the program even if you have good grades, if you don’t pass “juries.” At DePaul University’s BFA in Acting program, they have 52 freshmen and after the first year, they will cut that number down to 26 and you can be told to leave the school if you are not one of the 26 chosen to remain, even if you have straight A’s. Who cares if these kids get F’s…they are OUT. I already mentioned my D’s MArch program, which granted is grad school, but if you have two C+s in studio and all A’s in other courses (typically studio is one of four or five courses per semester), you will be asked to leave (cannot switch to another program in the department). Who cares if you have an F or not? You’re OUT.</p>
<p>PS, I cross posted with you, but transferring into a BFA program in theater is extremely difficult and even if a school takes one or two transfers, they usually have to start over as freshmen. Ka ching. Oh, and when they are cut from a program, it is in May and so they can’t even transfer if they wanted to but are out for a year. These programs barely take transfers.</p>
<p>Allow me to offer a modest proposal. Have the performing arts majors use the same grading schemes as the engineering majors do. Why should students be expelled from PA majors with C+'s? Why not expel them with F’s? That’s what engineering majors do. And - as you said - since PA students don’t really care about grading anyway, they shouldn’t care if the grading scheme is lowered.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, that research does nothing towards answering the questions you asked. </p>
<p>You demonstrated the the US has managed to lower its poverty rate over time and that the US has also increased its college graduation rate. So? As I said before, maybe the fact that the US has become richer has allowed more families to afford college for their children. In other words, we are remiss as to what is cause and what is effect.</p>
<p>So, no, it takes a little more research than that. Quite a bit, as a matter of fact. Social scientists have spent decades trying to ascertain the economic value of additional years of college and still haven’t been able to definitively do so.</p>
<p>Are you admitting that few, if any, of them actually fail? If so, then that proves my point. </p>
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<p>And then you are IN at some other decent school that you transfer to.</p>
<p>Contrast that with an engineering student who is OUT, and STAYS OUT, because no respectable school wants to admit a transfer student who had flunked out of his previous school. That’s a big difference. That is why many former engineering students end up with no degree at all. </p>
<p>If you truly see no difference between the two situations, then join me in implementing my modest proposal of post #206. If there truly is no difference anyway, then why not just flunk out the PA students entirely?</p>
<p>^That may be true. In the post I made several pages ago (not the two most previous), I acknowledged that possibility. I just think it would be more productive if we proceeded down this vain.</p>
<p>Also, if I recall, adjusted personal income has fallen since the early 1970s, so people aren’t really richer. </p>
<p>I don’t really care which side wins. I just want there to be a definitive answer, or at least as close as possible to it.</p>
<p>sakky, you don’t get it. The theater programs that employ cuts (not all do) do not cut based on GRADES. You CAN be cut and have STRAIGHT A’s. You are cut if you don’t pass “juries/evals”…an audition of sorts where you are subjectively evaluated. Some schools also cut a certain number of students to reduce the class size and you can be cut even if you have good grades. It is not about the grades. There is a subjective evaluation of your skills/talent. </p>
<p>The C+ example I gave was not for performing arts but rather is the policy at my D’s arch grad program at the university where I believe you once attended.</p>
<p>I understand people would be upset if it is implied certain majors are easier than others. It’s good to remember that many people choose the path of least resistance and, in a college context, it’s usually the majors within the Humanities and Social Sciences.</p>
<p>But sakky, if a student in engineering receives an F or their GPA is dipping low, they have the option to switch out of the major before amassing so many F’s that they flunk out entirely.</p>
<p>Enginox…you continue to insult people who choose majors not in the sciences as choosing them as the “path of least resistance.” Do you realize that some people have a passion for fields of study that are not in the sciences??? It isn’t because these fields are easier. I’m in a field that I wanted to be in since I was a young child. One of my kids, is also in a field she has wanted to be in since four years old. She didn’t pick the field or passion due to the grading system.</p>
<p>OH, and as far as paths of least resistance, I gotta laugh. The acceptance rates to college programs in her field are in the single digits…an average of 5% admit rates. Path of least resistance? And making it in her field is very very difficult odds as well. Nobody goes into her field of study because it is easy. It is so hard to be admitted, worse odds than the Ivy League. The programs are intense. The odds of employment are very difficult.</p>
<p>I am not the one insulting those people truly interested in their chosen fields but those individuals that choose to major in said fields because it provides the path of least resistance to a college degree. Your children are not representative of the larger population; that’s something people in technical fields would understand.</p>
<p>Enginox, people who choose to major in engineering are not the only ones who chose a field because they love it. Tons of people who choose OTHER fields are like engineers…they like the field. It isn’t because it is “easier.” You are truly insulting those who are genuinely interested in other fields and who also are in demanding programs in those fields. Nobody is saying that those who choose engineering are there for less than lofty purposes and so please do not say that about those interested in other degree programs.</p>
<p>Only if they catch it in time, which, sadly, many engineering students don’t.</p>
<p>I’ll give you a real-life example. I knew a (former) engineering student who, in his very first semester, received a 0.50 GPA (2 D’s and 2 F’s), thereby immediately expelling him. He had no chance to switch majors - he had already flunked out. And, like I said, other schools to which he might have transferred didn’t care that he was expelled because he took a difficult sequence of engineering coursework. All they saw was that he flunked out. </p>
<p>Now, granted, he should have switched majors during that first semester (in the same manner that those PA students that you mentioned who were to receive those C+'s should probably have switched majors). But for whatever reason, he did not do so, probably because he thought he could muddle through. Obviously, he was wrong. His academic career has basically been ruined forever. He’s been expelled from college, and no other respectable college wants to take him. {Granted, I suppose he could attend a community college to rebuild his shattered academic record, but the fact remains, he would have been better off had he never even tried the engineering major at all.}</p>
<p>sakky, people flunk out of college with low GPAs in many fields of study. </p>
<p>Also, you keep getting it wrong about the Performing arts stuff I shared. The C+ had nothing to do with the performing arts examples I gave. The cut programs that some performing arts programs employ are not based on grades. You can have good grades and still be cut (either based on subjective talent evaluation or else some programs cut the number of the class down after a year or two). You will have to leave the SCHOOL, and not switch degree programs. This is the case at quite a few programs.</p>
<p>As I said before, it’s those unmotivated students who choose HSS majors because of the easy grading - along with that easy grading itself - who make everybody else within those majors look bad. The administrators of those majors should be embarrassed that they do indeed have students who are solely looking for an easy path to graduation. Those majors should start grading harder. </p>
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<p>Ok, I will. I freely admit that there are plenty of engineering students who don’t really care about engineering, but are simply there for the (relatively) high starting salaries. </p>
<p>But now I think it’s your turn: you should admit that plenty of HSS students are there only because they are seeking an easy degree.</p>
<p>Right: college education is now expected for many jobs. Hence, it is becoming necessary for many people - B.A. is not overrated, but rather underrated (with it, you can hope to get an entry level office job). I know too many BAs who work as cashiers in stores…</p>