<p>sakky, the kids I know at very selective colleges, typically are choosing majors due to a keen interest in that major and not figuring out which major might give them the best grades. </p>
<p>Sure, there are unmotivated types of students at some colleges who don’t care their major or just care about gut courses. These students are not in the majority. </p>
<p>And sure, some pick a major based on their potential salary. </p>
<p>Speaking for myself, I’m in a field that pays a low salary and I was interested in this field as a young child. It had nothing to do with grades. I worked really hard in college and grad school at demanding universities. </p>
<p>A broad brush stroke has been painted here about non-techy majors. There are always some in every category who are not motivated, etc. etc. But clearly there are other demanding majors and some are not by any means paths of least resistance. Go tell that to the MT Forum and they will laugh so hard given how highly selective it is to be admitted and how intense the programs are (and some programs even cut based on talent once you are IN the program).</p>
<p>sakky, kids flunk out of college all the time and they ain’t all engineering students!!! </p>
<p>As far as the performing arts students who are cut and asked to leave a school, it is VERY difficult to transfer into another program as many such programs take few or no transfers and if they do, you must start over as a freshmen. The odds of admission as a transfer into a BFA in MT program are probably about 2%.</p>
<p>Very selective colleges or programs are not representative of the larger population. Presenting Sociology majors from <top institution=“”> is not proof that Sociology across the spectrum is demanding. Enough evidence has been presented supporting the view that Humanities and Social Sciences are considered “soft” when compared to the natural sciences yet you continue to cover your ears, close your eyes, and scream as loud as you possibly can.</top></p>
<p>Enginox, the issue isn’t which courses or majors are more demanding than others. You asserted that the REASON students pick majors in Humanities (Or any non-engineering or techy majors) is due to these being “easier” and “paths of least resistance.” That is what I take issue with. I do believe engineering is very demanding. But I believe those who pick other majors do so out of interest in those subjects. And often those courses can also be demanding. But you are questioning the motivation of those who opt to study non-techy subjects. I excelled at math when I grew up as did both my children. I chose a major and career unrelated to math and so did one of my kids. It wasn’t that we didn’t want to work hard. It was that even though we excelled at math, our interests and deep passions were in other fields of study. And these programs were quite demanding in themselves. That is all. You are questioning the motivation of those who have different interests than you, and that the reasons for studying in the humanities is just to take the easy path.</p>
<p>You are coming across as elitist about engineering. It also comes across as insulting to others with other interests as you are questioning their motivations. Further, you sound like you resent that engineering is “harder”. I hope you picked engineering because you have a passion for it. If you do, be happy. You knew it would be demanding. If you are not up to the challenge, pick something else that you apparently find less demanding. Typically, if one has a passion for a subject, they don’t mind that it is demanding because they love it so much.</p>
<p>That reminds me of the old Dave Chappelle joke where he observed that white people don’t really need to care about the intricacies of the law, but blacks have to know them intimately, lest they be accused of breaking the law (starts at 7:10 of the below video). Similarly, it’s easy to not care about grades when you know you’re not going to fail. It’s the people for which failure is a palpable danger who care deeply about grades, because they have to care, whether they want to or not. </p>
<p>(link to Dave Chappelle Police Brutality video)</p>
<p>I agree that many engineering students may start out not caring about grading. But by pain of the weeders, they’re forced to care about grading, because of the horror of flunking out. </p>
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<p>Not once have I ever disputed that other difficult majors exist. I believe that foreign language majors can be extremely difficult for those who aren’t already fluent in those majors. However, engineering is clearly a highly prominent example of a difficult major.</p>
<p>And nobody is saying that engineering is not an example of a very difficult major.</p>
<p>Again, what I take issue with is not declaring which majors are demanding or which are not but the assertion by some in this thread that those who pick majors outside the tech fields do so in order to have it “easier” or to follow a “path of least resistance.”</p>
<p>Really? Who? Again - when I say flunk out, I don’t simply mean to be expelled from a major, but to actually flunk out with F’s. </p>
<p>The only non-engineering (or natural science) students who seem to flunk out with F’s are those who are caught cheating, or are those college athletes who clearly never cared about academics anyway.</p>
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<p>Who said anything about transferring to another BFA program? You transfer to a cheesepuff HSS program. That way, you will still obtain a degree.</p>
<p>On the other hand, failed engineering students often times end up with no degree at all.</p>
<p>Actually, in college, you can flunk out in other majors besides engineering and so that danger does exist.</p>
<p>Sakky, you are entirely incorrect that students in other majors do not FLUNK out of college. There are people on CC even who have talked about their kids or friends who have flunked out and they were not engineering majors. They were not just kicked out of their major but their GPA was so low, they were kicked out of COLLEGE. </p>
<p>Do you know the member named Northstarmom? She has shared about her son flunking out of college and he was not an engineering student. That is one of many many examples.</p>
<p>Didn’t seem to help those engineering students who did love engineering…but nevertheless received failing grades. Those are precisely the students who demand reform within the engineering curriculum and educational culture.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the motivation of many of those Humanities and Social Science students must be questioned as long as Humanities and Social Science departments fail to correct departmental grading policies. </p>
<p>Personally, I chose to major in Physics because I feel engineering is too specialized and I’d prefer to have slightly more breadth than depth, at least at the undergrad level; I also hear Physics is tougher than engineering, in certain cases, so that’s right up my alley.</p>
<p>I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: it is those unmotivated HSS students who are simply looking for an easy degree who make the rest of the HSS students look bad. </p>
<p>I agree that it is unfair that the HSS majors are judged and embarrassed by their worst students. But what can I say? Like it or not, people will be judged by the company that they keep. What I recommend, if you don’t like it, is that you take it up with the administrators of those majors. Ask them why they allow those students to remain in their majors. Ask them why they don’t flunk them out. </p>
<p>As long as those students are allowed to remain within those majors, those majors will continue to be viewed as a haven for those who don’t really want to study.</p>
<p>SAKKY, I cannot believe you seriously believe that students do not flunk out of college due to low GPAs in a myriad of majors!! I mean this happens at every college just about. Hey, I have taught in the field of Education at five colleges. I have seen students flunk out due to very low GPAs. These were not good students and they did not work hard. Happens in all fields.</p>
<p>*while the humanities and social sciences in many classes had all but given up on grades below a B, and in many courses below an A-, and the biological sciences had no consistent pattern." *</p>
<p>Now, to be fair, I agree that, truly, if you do absolutely nothing, you might flunk out of a nontechnical major. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about students who actually put in some effort …and flunk out anyway. </p>
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<p>In which case your GPA is still maintained at a respectable level, which allows you to transfer to another major, perhaps at another school entirely. But you don’t actually flunk out.</p>
<p>What I would like to see is a PA major that says to its students: “you don’t dance/act/play the way I like”, and therefore, not only am I going to toss you out of the program, I am also going to ruin your permanent academic record with an F to deliberately hinder you from transferring to any other respectable school. Honestly, would that really happen?</p>
<p>sakky, you are one of the few people I have met who look down upon humanities majors and paint them with a broad brush stroke as being unmotivated types who don’t want to study. You say Humanities students “look bad.” To who? You? Not to people I know! </p>
<p>You keep asking if Performing Arts students can get F’s? YES, they can! Actually, in my D’s program, your grade goes down one full letter for every time you miss class. Say you have a C in the first place and you miss class twice, well…then you have an F. But I already explained, even if you don’t have an F, you can be cut from the school entirely. But surely if you do have Fs, you will also have to leave. </p>
<p>In any case, students who have GPAs below a certain level, will flunk out of college in many different majors. Engineering students don’t have a lock on flunking out of college! That is almost laughable.</p>
<p>sakky, quote all the articles you want about grading averages, etc. Students DO flunk out of college. Hello? It is a fact that students flunk out of college even at colleges that don’t have engineering at all offered.</p>
<p>You are probably referring to individuals that had a horrible work ethic before entering college. Those people would have flunked in a somewhat rigorous secondary education system but were probably pushed along despite their lack of preparation. Some of these individuals manage to enter community colleges and obtain AS degrees; a few may even manage to obtain a bachelor’s at bottom of the barrel 4 year universities. I guarantee you their majors are “fluffy” majors in Humanities and Social Sciences.</p>