<p>sakky, nobody is forced to major in engineering. If someone is doing so poorly in EVERY class, then they do need to switch to something else or are in over their heads. Or perhaps if so many are flunking out of a particular program, then the program needs to screen better during the admissions process. But there will always be people who do poorly and flunk out of college in many fields of study, not just engineering, which is a difficult field.</p>
<p>Enginox…re: 240…I understand that those who flunk out of college typically have a poor work ethic. I agree with all that. But sakky is questioning if students truly flunk out of college in subjects other than engineering and SURELY THEY DO!! All the time.</p>
<p>Look at graduation rates at various colleges. It is low at some colleges, particularly less selective ones. Now, of course, some just drop out and don’t flunk out. But some truly do flunk out and they did not ALL major in engineering. Some of these colleges do not even offer engineering and have students who flunk out. As I said, I have taught college myself and seen it firsthand.</p>
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<p>So you’re conceding that engineering is uniquely difficult. </p>
<p>And, sure, I agree that nobody needs to major in engineering, just like nobody needs to major in PA. But I profoundly disagree with the notion that all poorly-performing engineering students can simply switch out of engineering. Would that it were so simple! But like I said, once you have a failing academic record, the game is over. You can’t switch, because you’ve already been expelled. </p>
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<p>I agree that they do - those who truly do nothing (or are caught cheating). </p>
<p>What I am talking about is those who actually put in effort - do any of them actually fail? Really? Somehow I doubt it.</p>
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<p>Again I ask - exactly which nontechnical majors are you talking about that flunk out so many of their students? I’m not talking about those PA majors that don’t allow you to continue in the programs, but without actually failing their students. I’m talking about majors that actually fail their students.</p>
<p>Soozievt:</p>
<p>If a person tells me (s)he flunked out of a natural science or engineering program, I would not be surprised. It happens. A lot. If a person tells me (s)he flunked out of a Humanities or Social Science program, I’d be surprised, very surprised. The perception is that majors in those fields are easy; the grade inflation across colleges confirms this.</p>
<p>Regarding engineering, you need to understand that many programs grade against a curve. Even in an engineering class where there are only the absolute “best of the best”, 50% of them will be on the wrong side of that curve. If engineering schools then flunk and expel those students, their academic careers seem to be over, even though those individuals were in a group considered the “absolute best”.</p>
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<p>Both George W. Bush and John Kerry have freely admitted that they were unmotivated students while in college. Bush jokes about his wayward college years where he spent his time socializing and partying, and Kerry acknowledged that he spent more time learning how to fly than on focusing on his studies. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/07/politics/main700170.shtml[/url]”>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/07/politics/main700170.shtml</a></p>
<p>Nevertheless, they still graduated. Not with strong grades, but they still graduated. They didn’t actually fail. Not coincidentally, they both majored in the HSS’s. Makes you wonder - could Bush or Kerry have graduated if they majored in a technical subject?</p>
<p>Sakky, you can switch out of engineering before you truly flunk out. Many people do who are struggling. </p>
<p>Those who are cut from performing arts programs will have difficulty transferring as other programs are not apt to take transfers. And they must start over. And if they transfer for another field entirely, often few credits will transfer because the degree is so specialized and so again, they are starting over. Also, some performing arts programs do cut students who are working hard but the program decides that the student doesn’t have the talent. Also, in architecture studio where my kid attended, you can work your butt off to create projects and a professor may not like your project in a subjective fashion and not due to lack of effort. If you don’t attain a certain grade, you are asked to leave. </p>
<p>Again, I never disputed how demanding and difficult engineering programs are. My kid did not major in engineering but she took an engineering course in undergrad. Currently, she is involved in the technology of her field of interest and so is involved in pretty techy work (in fact, this summer she is doing research at one of the premiere technology universities in the world and in Europe).</p>
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<p>Similarly, you can switch out of PA before they expel you. </p>
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<p>But at least they can transfer. The flunked-out engineers can’t even do that.</p>
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<p>Sounds similar to the experience of the engineering students who transfer to other majors. They too have to start over. </p>
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<p>Whereupon you simply switch to another major. At least you have that option. Engineering students who are expelled don’t even have that option.</p>
<p>Again, if you truly believe there is no difference between the grading and expulsion schemes between engineering and PA, then join me in implementing my modest proposal put forth in post #206: that PA majors should actually outright and explicitly flunk the students they expel, in the same way that the engineering majors do. Why not? If there truly is no difference between the majors, then there is no reason not to do this, right? </p>
<p>Otherwise, you must agree that a difference indeed exists.</p>
<p>Performing arts students CAN flunk out. You can obtain failing grades. </p>
<p>You are the only one asserting that only engineering students can get failing grades. </p>
<p>I also shared arts programs where you can be cut even if you are not failing, and this is based on a talent assessment (even if you work hard) or in some schools, they reduce the class size after freshmen year to a certain number no matter how well the student may be doing grade-wise. You are not warned that you will be cut. You perform an audition for a jury and they decide if you will be dropped or not. You don’t have an option of changing majors.</p>
<p>With engineering, if you have an F or two, it is obvious you are on a path of flunking out and so you should switch majors before you entirely flunk out.</p>
<p>sakky, if I recall a long time ago on CC, you also made the same sort of arguments about the Sloan School at MIT…“easy way to an MIT degree” sort of argument. I guess only engineering students work hard at MIT. :rolleyes: My kid has been at MIT the past two years, and go visit the arch school one day. They work really hard too and it is extremely demanding…they pretty much live at the school round the clock. Nobody said engineering majors don’t have it tough. But really, they aren’t the only ones. You seem to thumb your nose at all else…as I recall, similarly with the Sloan School of Management at MIT and how easy those students had it. </p>
<p>People pick other majors because they are not interested in engineering. It doesn’t mean their studies are a cake walk.</p>
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<p>How many do? Be honest. </p>
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<p>I said no such thing. I have freely stated that students who put in zero effort (or are caught cheating) in other majors may flunk out. </p>
<p>The difference is that engineering students who actually put in effort can still flunk out. </p>
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<p>And again, that’s when you transfer to another respectable school. You don’t have any F’s on your transcript, so you should be free to do so. </p>
<p>On the other hand, for a flunked-out engineering student, where exactly is he going to go? </p>
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<p>Again, if you can. What if you flunk out in your first semester, as happened to the guy with the 0.5 GPA. What are you going to do now?</p>
<p>I also find it quite interesting that you keep ignoring my modest proposal. I wonder what that means.</p>
<p>sakky, as I have written many times, those who PUT IN THE EFFORT can still be cut from certain arts programs based on a talent assessment. </p>
<p>Those who PUT IN THE EFFORT, can be asked to leave my D’s arch grad program, based on subjective evaluations of their talent. </p>
<p>F’s or not, these are not good situations to be in and make it difficult to transfer. </p>
<p>The example you gave of a kid who was flunking every single course he was in first semester…it should never have gotten that far…first, the kid was in over his head and likely should not have been admitted or was not putting in full effort…;OR should have sought help or advice about withdrawing certain courses since he was flunking all at the mid term, before it got that far where he was flunking the entire semester. Also, some colleges have probationary semesters to pull up a GPA…the student can switch majors as well. </p>
<p>But typically before someone entirely flunks out, there are warnings…either official ones or simply they can see that they are failing a subject or two and have to switch majors or some other remedy.</p>
<p>sakky, I also feel that you have strayed from the main topic of this thread and turned it into a engineering vs. other majors topic. Maybe you should rename it: “Those who CAN, major in engineering; those who CAN"t, study easy subjects.” :rolleyes:</p>
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<p>But they don’t receive F’s. That’s my point. Their permanent transcripts are not ruined. </p>
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<p>I never said those were good situations to be in. I am simply saying that it’s better than having your permanent transcript tagged with F’s. Surely you would agree. </p>
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<p>I agree he should have done many things. But be that as it may, he nevertheless flunked out. What is he going to do now? </p>
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<p>You often times can’t switch while you’re under probation. </p>
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<p>And similarly, I would argue that PA students who are about to be expelled should probably receive warnings. </p>
<p>But the fact remains that while PA students may be expelled, they aren’t expelled with F’s. Engineering students are expelled and with F’s. You must agree that that’s a clear difference.</p>
<p>Sakky, your only point did not seem to be merely that a student would have F’s on their permanent record. You also made a distinction that those who flunk out of engineering majors did so despite much effort and that those who flunk out of other majors (and indeed students DO flunk out of other majors with F’s and low GPAs), do so due to cheating or lack of effort. I did share some examples in subjective arts programs where lack of effort wasn’t always the only reason for being removed.</p>
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<p>I’m simply saying that there are non-engineering (and non-science) majors in which many students don’tcare and don’t put in much effort …yet can still graduate anyway. That speaks to the OP’s point: those students probably shouldn’t be going to college at all. </p>
<p>But, rationally speaking, unfortunately, as long as students can obtain a degree in a creampuff major with minimal effort, then employers will continue to demand that applicants have degrees. The logic would be that even if a complete lazybones can obtain a degree, then why ever hire anybody without one?</p>
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<p>No, actually, that is (one of) my main points. </p>
<p><a href=“and%20indeed%20students%20DO%20flunk%20out%20of%20other%20majors%20with%20F’s%20and%20low%20GPAs”>quote</a>, do so due to cheating or lack of effort.
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<p>Again, who? Which nontechnical majors are flunking students out with F’s?</p>
<p>OH, I agree that performing arts students who are going to be expelled SHOULD receive warnings. But unfortunately I have read of a couple of BFA programs where students had GOOD grades and were expelled from these BFA programs with NO warnings. There are threads on the MT Forum about such specific programs and what transpires at them. Very hot topic over there over the years. I do not agree with this practice whatsoever.</p>
<p>But they weren’t expelled with F’s. Heck, you said it yourself - some of them were expelled with GOOD grades.</p>
<p>Like I said, if you’re expelled with good grades, you can still transfer to a respectable school. Sure, maybe your PA career is over, but you can still obtain a degree from a decent school. </p>
<p>The flunked-out engineering students can’t even do that.</p>