Engineering is getting worse, that much is true, but the truth is that the world economy in general is not what it was before the 1980s, so people in unstable positions (older workers over 50, young graduates with little experience, people without a ton of credentials) start to suffer. Engineers are not alone in suffering from generally diminished job prospects around the world. And the US actually has it very good compared to other Western countries, but that might not last.
It’s quite pessimistic, but most of his points are valid, even if exaggerated. All of the problems he brings up are genuine problems that engineers have to deal with.
Your experiences do not reflect the experiences of all engineers. If you look actual numbers, they tell a very different story. For example, the average increase in mid career salary over the past 4 years in the Payscale survey is below. I chose 4 because it was the oldest that I found in a quick Google search, not because there is anything special about the pattern.
Most surveyed engineering fields were had at least an 8% increase in the past 4 years, a higher rate of salary increase than all of the most popular majors, inflation, and the general population as a whole. This rate of increase in the past 4 years roughly fits with the experiences of engineers I personally know as well.
The lowest salary position you have heard of has little bearing with what is typical. I also work in EE, and my experiences with entry level positions are very different, as are surveys of large numbers of recent grads.
This isn’t true either. There is a lot of variation in different fields of engineering, making it difficult to generalize. But if you want to keep up with new skills, it’s quite common for engineering companies to pay 100% of the tuition costs for relevant classes. In many cases they’ll pay for full grad degrees as well. Many colleges have programs targeting on working engineers, such as Stanford’s Center for Professional Development, which involves taking the same classes as campus students while living remotely and not having to visit campus. I’ve done this before, but it was more taking classes for fun than as a career perspective, as well as finishing up a 2nd master’s that I did not complete while a campus student… Most engineers also learn new and modern skills on the job, as a large portion of companies keep up with new technologies, rather than just using the same tech and becoming obsolete.
The fact that you are touting petroleum engineering (based on a look-back period) is fascinating. The prospects for employment at the major oil companies are dismal for at least the next three years. I have no crystal ball beyond that.
But beyond the major oil companies- then comes the aftermarket-upstream and downstream. Also dismal. And the heavy equipment manufacturers (who employ a lot of engineers- not just petroleum engineers)- also dismal.
You could have looked at voluntary survey numbers in early 2001 and decided that working in e-commerce was the single most lucrative career for a new BS/BA. And you’d have been right. Until later in the year when all of tech crashed and the LIFO rule (last one in, first one out) came into play and all those shiny new grads who had trained for one specific industry were unemployed.
But that was a long time ago and nobody remembers 2001.
But I could also describe the years back in the 1990’s when aerospace engineers couldn’t get jobs selling pantyhose at Macys… there were so many unemployed engineers. Home prices in places near Long Beach California tanked-- within a few weeks. Or the years back in the 1980’s when folks thought that the Big 3 Auto manufacturers were finished- and thousands of mechanical engineers were let go.
I owned a home a few miles away from a huge GM manufacturing and F&D facility. It was hard to see middle class families face unemployment- that was first. And then their primary asset- their homes- cratered by about 25% within a few months of the announcement that the facility was closing.
But sure. Payscale is the best. And so accurate at predicting cyclical industries.
Unless the consulting is at the “elite” level, wouldn’t MIS consulting be the kind that is commodity outsourced to the kinds of companies that hog H-1B visas or move those services to other countries?
@Magnetron , Did any of your kids ever have any interest in engineering at all? Have you actively dissuaded them from engineering, based on your experiences?
I’m assuming that was directed at me. The point was looking at the trend and seeing if it was consistent with the statement I replied to about engineering salaries decreasing, rather than focusing on every anomalous subfield of engineering in the past 20 years. That said, note that I wrote “average increase in mid career salary.” not recent grad salary. Recent grads in petroleum show a different pattern. Most still find jobs in desired industries, but with tremendously less demand than a couple years ago, as well as with a lower typical starting salary for new grads. Petroleum is something of a unique field in its historically rapidly varying marketing demand. The other listed engineering fields did not show a decrease in either recent grad or mid career during the listed period. While EE and other large engineering fields do have a historical variation in demand, it’s nothing to the compared to petroleum.
This is strictly antedotal but I ran into an old friend a few weeks ago, Her D graduated from U of R in 2015 with a degree in ME (iirc) and still hasn’t found a job. She is in the San Diego area because the boyfriend in another engineering field got a job there. I must say I was surprised, especially since my S, who graduated from a LAC and majored in PoliSci and minored in History, had a job lined up with a Fortune 200 company not related to anything he did in college. He was 1 of 15 applicants accepted into their Corp. exec trying program out of 3000 applicants.
Frankly, I think there are going to be way more engineering grads then engineering jobs as it seems to me just reading CC everyone’s kids are going to study/studying engineering. JMO.
Yes, much to our surprise S1 started as a combined EE/CS. He was doing well and liked it OK until he got to the applied design courses, sitting in a basement with a bunch of semi-unsocial guys, many with questionable hygiene, clicking away on a computer. That was his last semester in the engineering school. He is super-social and it was driving him nuts.
With D, there is only so much that you can fight nature. Even if she eventually becomes a dog walker she is in the right field for her. Want to know the second fastest land animal or the third largest primate? The mating habits of pangolins? The difference in personalities between mule deer and blacktails? I know who to ask in my house.
I have worked with various industries for the past 30 years. Typical starting salaries in 1986 for my friends were in the $20/hr range with a signing bonus and moving expenses. Adjusted for inflation, that is $44/hr now. Changing mid-career salaries is like turning an ocean liner - lots of inertia - but the starting job market is more indicative of current changing climates. Engineering is seen as a commodity and treated like a commodity. I am seen as interchangeable with 1000 resumes from India. Being the smartest person in the room is no longer the advantage it once was.
I used mid-career because you were describing personal experience from what sounds like a mid-career. Recent grad salary showed a similar pattern in the survey, with the same 8% median increase in engineering recent grad salary as occurred in mid-career career salary, but the specific industries were a bit different. Computer had the highest recent grad salary increase, and petroleum was the only one of the listed engineering fields with a recent grad decrease. This fits with expectations of computer being especially hot at the moment and petroleum have a large reduction in demand for new grads.
If you want more than anecdotal examples, many colleges publish stats about job outcomes for recent grads. I’ll use GeorgiaTech as an example, because their press release compares to 4 years ago, like my earlier post. They state bachelor’s degree engineering grads have an 87% offer rate and 77% placement rate at graduation, compared to 76% offer and 69% placement 4 years ago. They state that median salary of those who have a job waiting increased by 7% to just over $70k (including bonus) compared to 4 years ago, which is very similar to Payscale numbers. Like with Payscale, Computer Engineering had the largest increase, with some starting salaries as high as $140k+. EE had one guy who took a $32k salary job, which is similar to Magnetron’s example, but the median among all reporting was over $70k.
“The trouble with using CC data and applying it to the rest of the world is that you’d end up believing Yale way over-enrolled.”
Point taken, but I also hear it from other people too, and in countless articles that promote Engineering and the other STEM fields as the only ones in which you can get a job and I hear everywhere that majoring in the humanities will lead to one living in their parent’s basements.
When looking at statistics, keep in mind the phrase : Lies, D#!^&* Lies, and Statistics
For example, Nuclear Engineers have a much higher median salary than ME’s. However, NE’s tend to be much older, so are, on average, farther along in their careers. Also, NE’s are projected to lose 700 jobs from 2014 to 2024. However, job demand will remain strong, based on aging NE’s retiring, and the small number of students that pursue NE.
“sitting in a basement with a bunch of semi-unsocial guys, clicking away on a computer.” So, why did he go to that school and start in engineering to begin with? Many engineers are quite social, athletic, well rounded, etc. My kids are all of that and had no problem meeting many of those types of kids at their schools .
That was the advice my father, who was an engineer, gave me 30 years ago. It was good advice. To be a long term success in that field, you have to be able to make the jump from engineering to business at some point. That usually means starting your own company, or going into management, consulting or sales. The people I know that have stayed in engineering have plateaued in terms of income relatively early in their careers, and have had to reposition themselves several times in order to stay in the field.
@emilybee, CC is so not representative of the rest of society and there is a pretty high attrition rate in engineering, so just hearing what people plan to do won’t give you a good idea of actual number of grads.
As for the petroleum engineering discussion, petroleum engineering is a pretty niche field and the oil industry go through major boom-bust cycles. One of those started in the '80’s, and for about 15 years after that, the oil industry hired little in. Which means that there is a major gap now as the older cohort is starting to retire and a ton of engineers are below 35. Which means an opportunity to rise to senior positions if you are in that gap range. Granted, you had to get in when times were bad and the industry wasn’t hiring: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-07/lost-generation-of-oil-workers-leaves-few-options-for-next-boom
Granted, pay mind to secular forces as well (energy coming from other sources).
^^^It’s the move I made as an engineer (switch to management), and it’s what I’m recommending to both of my children. They should plan on “what’s next” after that first entry level engineering position. Going back to school for your masters? Earning your PE? Switching roles/careers? Starting your own business? Lots of options, but don’t become complacent in that entry level position, even if the pay seems good.
" CC is so not representative of the rest of society and there is a pretty high attrition rate in engineering, so just hearing what people plan to do won’t give a good idea…"
Yes, I know that but just the amount of students who say they are planning on engineering on CC and what I hear in other places and what I read - plus this prevailing notion now that it is becoming more pervasive that an undergraduate degree be a professional degree (where before that was what graduate school was for) leads me to believe these fields are going to have too many graduates for the jobs available. That’s my opinion and I’m very inclined to believe there is a bubble and it will pop eventually.