Is evidence of high IQ worth mentioning?

Graduate School
1

<p>Hi, it's me again with my bizarre questions.</p>

<p>Since I'm anonymous here, I can reveal that the situation happens to be that my IQ is better than that of at least 98% of the people on the Earth. Ok, I really don't know how accurate that is, especially anymore, and I seriously don't want to start a conversation about semantics of the word 'intelligence' here. I will use it to mean IQ and (what I believe to be fairly equivalent) general problem-solving ability.</p>

<p>The question is: is it worth mentioning the fact (in a non-arrogant way, of course) in a science graduate school application? The test was the official Mensa one taken under very strict test conditions, not any of that Facebook app clickety-click stuff.</p>

<p>The rest of the post is just my ramblings about the subject. If you already have a strong opinion, feel free to express it. I welcome (and anticipate) negative comments, but I trust, this being a very civilized forum, they are reasoned.</p>

<p>I read somewhere that since there are so many smart people in colleges, providing a proof of high IQ gives no further information. I hope I don't hurt anyone's feelings, but my strong (and biased, I know) opinion is that's utterly wrong. As I understand (I'm an international), factors affecting college admissions are mostly ECs (which require at most average intelligence), recommendations (which require enthusiasm and some good old brown-nosing), grades (which, especially in case of high school, require some intelligence, but mostly effort and dedication). Of course, there are also tests. I don't know about SAT/ACT's, but general GRE requires again only bit over average intelligence and then some fairly basic math skills and large vocabulary. Subject GRE's seem to require almost exclusively knowing the material well.</p>

<p>In other words, I believe (and my personal experience agrees) mean IQ of people attending college is above average, but nowhere near even 90 percentile. More like 60, which is however just a very crude guess with no backing up evidence. Since high IQ seems to imply liking logical things, I'd guess that correlation (but not necessarily causality) makes students of math, physical sciences and engineering have higher IQ than the rest, but the effect is again unknown. The fact that high IQ is neither necessary nor sufficient condition to do well in high school or college (or even graduate) courses, and the effect it has is far outweighed by dedication, makes the assumption that all students of groups mentioned above are extremely intelligent false (of course, in absence of hard evidence, I have to add that this is only my opinion).</p>

<p>Another piece that is often addressed is the usefulness of high IQ in science. As stated above, I believe anything above about 60-70 percentile is all but useless in coursework. However, I believe high IQ is extremely useful in research, which is what graduate school should be concerned about. Research is essentially problem solving (which is mentally hard) pieced together with routine work (which might be manually hard and/or time-consuming). Problem-solving has much to do with logical thinking, and (quick) logical thinking is essentially what those IQ tests measure. The conclusion, thus, is, that high IQ alone does not make one good researcher, but, other things equal, it should be beneficial. </p>

<p>I'm not sure if this is common knowledge or not, but Mensa IQ tests do not require one to be able to do any calculations nor know any words (beside what's required to understand the instructions) or have any advanced knowledge of anything. The problems are patterns and sequences with missing pieces that you have to fill. I'm not sure if one can practice for the test, but I know no one who has done so deliberately (of course, any problem-solving might be useful, but I mean practicing like one does for a GRE). I also find it extremely difficult to find any cultural bias in abstract figures, but that's a touchy subject I wish not venture into here.</p>

<p>I'm kind of running out of time, so I'll add more later, if requested (I don't promise not to do so even if no one requests posting). I hope I don't seem too arrogant. I certainly do not think high IQ makes anyone better person in any way (often it does the contrary). I'm not sure how popular topic this is in the US, but I would be very happy if some actual discussion emerged here.</p>

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<p>Don’t put it in. They already have your GRE/GMAT/MCAT/LSAT scores, right? That’s the kind of intelligence they’re looking for anyway. That’s my belief at least.</p>

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<p>tl/dr, but the answer is no. It would just make you sound arrogant, and as the poster above said, schools are much more interested in how well you can do on an admissions exam than IQ test.</p>

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<p>You could be the smartest guy in the world, but a lazy turd and have horrible grades and test scores and they wont take you. Conversely, you might be the hardest working ■■■■■■ in the world and they might. I doubt someone who is an idiot can fool every professor they ever had in college to the point of obtaining a high GPA. I think your academic record speaks more highly of your academic ability than an IQ test and a Mensa membership card. Personally, I think someone’s ability and intelligence is only measured in terms of what they achieve, not what someone tells them based on some test. I could go into my personal views on Mensa, but I’m abstaining from that one…</p>

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<p>I agree with Navy. If your IQ is as high as you claim, you should have enough activities, grades, etc. to distinguish you. There was one kid in my HS who was simply intelligent, and it had nothing to do with grades. You could tell by talking to him that his thinking was clearly elevated. He had a very impressive resume, even in HS, so there was no need to mention any of that. As others have pointed out, you could be very intelligent but have accomplished nothing, in which case no one cares what your IQ is. Produce fantastic work and that speaks for itself.</p>

<p>Also, if I read an application that mentioned anything about an IQ, I would not take it seriously at all. It would be a serious detriment honestly because now people will scrutinize your application even more to see if you live up to some ideal they have in their head. Bad idea. No.</p>

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<p>The smarter you are, the less you should care about your IQ. It seems to me that you may have some confidence issues, and you are hoping your tested IQ will fill in the gaps of your shortcomings.</p>

<p>I am not sure if it has been tested, but I would not be surprised if a high IQ level is correlated to anti-social personalities.</p>

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<p>Even if what you say is true, the only thing that matters is what the graduate admissions thinks. Currently, IQ is being scrutinized and society does not seem to appreciate it as much anymore. I wouldn’t put it in. I did put Mensa membership in my Harvard undergrad application, and look where I am now :(</p>

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<p>WHO cares?</p>

<p>If you want to show off your IQ, then ace the GRE. The GRE is grad scohol’s version of the standard IQ test, if you will.</p>

<p>Remember the Seinfeld episode where Elaine takes George’s IQ test so George could impress his girlfriend? See, people with lower IQ care because he was obsessed about it and Elaine just said offhand that she had an IQ of 137 and didn’t seem to care.</p>

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<p>Don’t mention it.</p>

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<p>Ok, it seems that a very clear consensus has been reached - thanks for all the opinions.</p>

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<p>The point I was trying to make was that GRE does tell little about intelligence. The QGRE is very easy: most math and science majors score 800 minus some sloppy mistakes, regardless of intelligence, as long it’s a bit above average. If QGRE was harder I would actually agree to an extent with the above, though still it would probably test mainly basic mathematical thinking and not problem-solving.</p>

<p>Verbal, on the other hand, relies on vocabulary and not on intelligence. The analogies are conceptually not exactly hard, it’s vocabulary and vocabulary alone that really matters. Again, there is some very mild correlation with vocabulary and IQ due to smart people generally liking reading, but that’s it. </p>

<p>Regarding “showing off”, isn’t that what the whole admission process is about? Is sending great GRE scores not “showing off GRE scores”? Is sending a piece of research not “showing off research”?</p>

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<p>I have to disagree. When I took the test many years ago, I thought it simply was a fun thing to do. Naturally, now I hope it would be helpful for admissions and make me stand out, but it unfortunately doesn’t seem like that. </p>

<p>On the other hand, I would not be surprised by the correlation mentioned either. Then again, I believe mild anti-social behavior does not hurt research potential in any way.</p>

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<p>If you were given evidence of a large amount of people with high IQ and zero activities and bad grades, what then? Would you rather think the IQ test was wrong/data fabricated, or admit that activities and grades have little to do with intelligence? It might be an interesting piece of knowledge that Mensa is full of high school and college dropouts, who were extremely frustrated by not being able to use their brain at any level of school. Of course I don’t expect you to believe just my word. Were you interested in having a correct view of what high IQ means, I’d suggest contacting your local group.</p>

<p>The last piece of the quote is interesting. Would you like to elaborate? Not seriously in what way?</p>

<p>And finally for navyasw02:
I would be happy if you explained your personal opinion on Mensa, even when it clearly would be quite contradictory to mine. High IQ societies are not religions; at least I welcome all opinions that state I am wrong, stupid and naive, as long as the opinions are reasoned.</p>

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<p>98% is around 130 IQ… not that high a number in a good grad school, and as many have noted bragging about your IQ on an app is a pretty good turnoff. If they wanted your IQ they would ask for it.</p>

<p>For what it is worth, I have a pretty high IQ as well, and have never even considered putting it on an application. Further, I know several people who have an IQ noticably lower than mine who have had greater success in academia by virtue of their work ethic and passion.</p>

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<p>Is this a serious question or is the OP just having fun? Hard to believe he’s serious.</p>

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<p>You mentioned your point about the GRE, but up until about 10 years ago the GRE actually counted towards Mensa admissions. The GMAT still counts for admissions. </p>

<p>Since you asked for my thoughts on Mensa, here you go. I always thought about joining since I was younger and took an IQ test to go to those “gifted and talented” schools. I always enjoyed the company of other smart people I went to school with and figured I’d enjoy it as an adult as well. I researched it and some of those other smart people societies and found that there’s a lot of people out there who join as a form of intellectual d!@k measuring, something that I detest. The more I looked, even on the Mensa webpage, I found subtle hints of elitism. I realized that the reason that I get along with certain group of people isn’t necessarily because of intelligence. I dont need a club to tell me how smart I am, or to stroke my ego, or simply to meet other smart people. There’s plenty of smart (and smarter) people out there in the world who aren’t Mensa.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately I am very serious. Could you explain why you think I’m just having fun? I mean, what part of my argument is ridiculous enough to justify thinking that?</p>

<p>I’m actually a bit lost here, honestly. Does no one really think that intelligence has anything to do with research potential? Or is the point that GPA and GRE are good enough meters of IQ? Or is the matter that IQ, as measured by these test has not enough to do with intelligence, as required by work? Note that I’m not saying it is the only or even the most important thing, I’m just wondering if everyone really thinks the effect is close enough to zero to be neglected.</p>

<p>Now the very important thing to note is that I’m not actually claiming that anything I think about the subject is absolutely true. I recognize that I might be wrong. The main purpose of this thread (now that I got a very clear answer to my original question) is why people think the way they do about the importance of intelligence. I find it very hard to find a good explanation, and I would be very happy if someone could help me out here by answering the questions in the second paragraph.</p>

<p>Despite the tone of some of the answers, thanks for all of them so far.</p>

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<p>Intelligence has a lot to do with research potential, but it is overshadowed by dedication, discipline, and passion. Regardless, admissions committees agree that the best indicators are your academic performance (as indicated by GPA) and your ability to handle actual research (hopefully shown by your LOR’s).</p>

<p>How would adding your high IQ to your app help anyway? If your GRE is low, then it implies that you are smart but ignorant of the fundamentals. If your GPA is low, then it implies that despite your intelligence you lack the discipline to actually do well in school. If your LOR’s are poor then it means your IQ does NOT translate into research potential. If everything else is good… then why include your IQ?</p>

<p>For what it is worth, MENSA does have some small merit - many “gifted” people have some social awkwardness, but meeting others in the same boat sort of cancels it out. I know a few people in MENSA who have met good friends that way, and one even met his spouse at some MENSA function. Ultimately, however, most MENSA members and nearly all members of the other high-IQ societies are indeed just going for bragging rights.</p>

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<p>Just to clarify, in case you haven’t figured it out: graduate programs don’t look at raw intelligence. Instead, they want to see the results of it. </p>

<p>In other words, they are interested in the effect, not the cause.</p>

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<p>If QGRE was more difficult, I would probably like it. I actually did not know about these other tests being viable for admission to Mensa, as we have only one single test, which is the only way to gain entrance. However, I think, given the test has enough distinguishing power (i.e. not the current QGRE…), that’s not actually a bad idea.</p>

<p>I have been extremely inactive in Mensa, but from what I have seen, what you say is quite true. Happily, not all, or even the majority are how you described. However, since I have met literally maybe 15 other members, I cannot say much how they generally think about non-members. I detest elitism, however one can hardly say Mensa is the only club responsible.</p>

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<p>I hope I did not come across as someone looking a shortcut to grad school based on IQ. What I was wondering was that would it be useful as a supplementary information. E.g., if at some stage the committee would have two essentially identical applicants for the last spot, of which one had a proof of high IQ and the other had not, would the IQ affect the decision? </p>

<p>My plan of admission was never based on the subject of this topic; I was merely wondering if it would give some extra edge. Some LOR-writing-guides I have seen ask for the intelligence of the student, if it matters.</p>

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<p>If graduate school was McDonald’s (or any other short-term job, really), I would completely agree. The results now would be what matters. However, a graduate student is not a ready professional, he/she’s merely one accepted for elementary training. Thus, what I believe is (or should be) important is not the research output of the student in a couple of years (in which case the effect-not-the-cause-approach would be completely justified), but how the student will look in 20-30 years. This means the focus is (read: should be) mostly on long-term potential. I am not strictly speaking claiming that high IQ helps there, but to me it seems that some importance should be based on the cause of the effect, if it can be found.</p>

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<p>Except that graduate school is not McDonald’s, and the “effect” can be as complex as the cause. We are not talking about punching a time clock. We are talking about high-level, skilled reflections of intelligence such as top grades, the mastery of complex material, the skill-set learned through research with a mentor, articulate career goals, ambition, etc. You cannot take a person of average or below-average intelligence and make him into a PhD. Everyone who applies to these programs is intelligent. What distinguishes them is what they’ve done with the knowledge they have acquired and the potential expressed through these career beginnings. I wrote “effect,” not “end result.” No one expects a new graduate student to have everything already in place.</p>

<p>No one cares whether the cure for a particular cancer comes from a researcher with a Mensa-level IQ or from one with an IQ ten points lower. They only care that the cure has been found. The IQ of the PI is irrelevant, just as the IQs of his/her graduate students are irrelevant.</p>

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<p>A lot of websites claim that the median IQ for PhD holders is 125, 130 for PhDs in physics. Do you really want to advertise the fact that you are average in that segment of the population?</p>

<p>That aside, putting a GRE score on your application screams of arrogance and might be enough to get you rejected everywhere you apply.</p>

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<p>I think the reason people have negative views of Mensa (claims of elitism, etc) is because Mensans are just like everyone else but with a higher IQ. This means there is a large proportion who are flawed human beings but who have an instrument (intelligence) to demonstrate their flaws. If people with average IQ were suddenly elevated to higher intelligence (or high IQ), they too would have similar flaws and demonstrate them. Mensans are not more elitist than regular people–they just demonstrate their elitism through the tool of intelligence. Of course there are “nice” regular people, as well as “nice” Mensans (I like to think I am one of these). </p>

<p>Note: I’ve actually never attended a Mensa function, but I love reading the magazine. Richard Lederer is the best!</p>