<p>Hmmm. I wish I could find the '15 programs' that it referred to at the top. But, anywho, that's only fifteen programs. It's not even fifteen top schools- it's just fifteen top programs. So even if they did get into a top grad school like Harvard/UPenn/Chicago/Wherever, they'd have to get into one of those 15 programs as well. And I'd say there's definitely more than 15 amazing programs out there... Probably a more useful statistic would be how many applied to those 15 programs and were accepted.</p>
<p>I don't know. I think as long as the two undergrad schools are roughly in the same ballpark, as long as she does well and is involved and scores high on whatever tests she'll need to take, she'll have equal chances.</p>
<p>I think it is unreasonable to assume that the job prospects of someone going to WC, long term, are substantially better than someone going to Barnard. I just don't see how that is a reasonable thing to assume, especially not if your only evidence is that WSJ list, which is completely non-scientific and largely arbitrary. </p>
<p>WC is not "better", it is different. You can't convince anyone that WC is "better", because it isn't. You can encourage your daughter to go to WC, or you can force her, or you can let her decide. It is up to you. But there is no good logical reason why you should prefer one over the other. The only reasonable way to choose is "fit", unless there is a specific major your daughter is interested in that is substantially better at one college than the other.</p>
<p>"I have no idea how to survive on 30,000 in LA, SF or NYC."</p>
<p>Well, you're also not 22. Perhaps it would do your daughter some good to learn how to live on a tight budget without immediate expectation that education = paycheck. That's not a good reason to go to school, in my opinion.</p>
<p>I lived quite happily in DC on $30,000 with student loans to pay off, which is perhaps just a bit cheaper than LA, SF, and NYC. Plus, cost of living might make it $35,000 in such cities. Nevertheless, thousands of people in LA, SF, and NYC live on far less everyday. Just think of all the struggling actors in LA and the aspiring artists / working class in NYC. She wouldn't be living on the Upper East Side, but many do it in the surrounding burroughs.</p>
<p>The WSJ study measures the number of students who attend the top 5 law schools, top 5 business schools, and top 5 med schools out of college. The study's flawed, but at the very least somewhat indicative of the quality of undergrads coming out of schools (which, in turn, reflect the quality of high schoolers going into those schools). Barnard most likely doesn't do well in that study because it's not the most selective school out there.</p>
<p>Now, all of that said, there is no reason to stress out if you don't get into the top 5 school of any sort. If your daughter wants to be a lawyer anywhere, going to a top 50 or so law school is probably important. Otherwise (say, if she wants to work at a prestigious law firm), top 20 is fine. For med school, unless you're looking for prestigious research fellowships or prestigious hospital placements, pretty much anywhere is ok. Business school follows law school in that if you're looking for a prestigious job, there's not a huge difference in going to the 11th ranked business school and the 5th. I am sure Barnard students do just fine in getting into the top 20 law/business schools, and in overall med school acceptances. Sure, they may not do as well as WC school (Pomona?), but Barnard students do just fine.</p>
<p>I don't know what the OP does for a living or if he is even employed. But if he is, look around at work. Did all the people with a good salary go to grad school out of a top undergrad? For a parent (and I can guess the ethnicity from the missing articles in the sentences) you have an awfully narrow view of how people get jobs out of college and advance in their careers in the USA. You seem to think this country works the same as it does in other places overseas, where going to the "top" school pretty much sets your path for life. It don't work that way here. Kids from schools sneered at on this forum prove themselves on the job and become leaders, even CEO's. Kids from the top colleges can mess up; even if the diploma gets them interviews (an effect that won't matter much a few years after college when they care what you have DONE lately, not where your degree is from) they still have to produce.</p>
<p>But given that you're so sure that rankings are the be-all in life, and that there's some significant difference between a school ranked in the top 10 and the top 40, I'd say your D better be buying sweatshirts from the west-coast school.</p>
<p>No one knows what the job market will look like in four years, except that it will be even more volatile and full of new kinds of careers that don't yet exist. There's plenty of evidence that the tool kit our kids will need in that new world are best found in the breadth and depth of knowledge and critical thinking skills you get from a liberal arts education.</p>
<p>Far as where your daughter should go, you should also consider your relationship with her. If she picks the WC college under pressure from you, and then it doesn't work out, how will that affect you both? In any case, good luck with the decision.</p>
<p>IMHO, fit is most important. What good does it do to send your kid off and have them come back home or switch schools after a semester or a year. You lose all hope of financial aid with the new institution as they know you are screwed. I would take fit over prestige, financial aid (if at all possible) and anything else...</p>
<p>One last thing-- my friend's mother forced her to go to college 1500 miles from home so she could see what life was like elsewhere. Guess what? She stayed there. If you send your daughter to college on the west coast, there's a good chance that she will remain there after graduation. Maybe you don't care, maybe you do... it's just one more thing to add to the list.</p>
<p>"For a parent (and I can guess the ethnicity from the missing articles in the sentences) you have an awfully narrow view of how people get jobs out of college and advance in their careers in the USA"</p>
<p>Yes, many people do land great jobs who do not go to the top schools, but many people at the top schools land better jobs, than people who do not go...will teh studetns life be closed from the op jobs, no. But hte student will have a much easier path to the thop if attending Harvard rather than University of Florida.</p>
<p>People on this thread make the fundamental error, thinking that there are people in the top of their fields from all colleges, so all colleges therefore must be equal. They are not. MORE people at teh top of their field come out of the top colleges. This is importnat. I would even go as far as to argue that the people who graduate from a school ranked 1-10 have a WAY EASIER path than a studnet who graduates from a 15-25...
Just look to stats of Harvard grads vs. Emory grads....two top quality schools with HUGE differneces. The same trend can be measured when lloking Amherst grads and Hamilton grads...</p>
<p>"But hte student will have a much easier path to the thop if attending Harvard rather than University of Florida."</p>
<p>"MORE people at teh top of their field come out of the top colleges. This is importnat. I would even go as far as to argue that the people who graduate from a school ranked 1-10 have a WAY EASIER path than a studnet who graduates from a 15-25..."</p>
<p>You sound like someone who has never had a "top job" or been at "the top of their field." Those who have know that your assertions are incorrect.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I have no idea how to survive on 30,000 in LA, SF or NYC.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First off, I'm living perfectly fine on $25k/year right now in LA as a grad student.</p>
<p>Secondly, why would your child have to live in LA, SF, or NYC? Frankly, when I'm finished getting my PhD, I have no intentions of ever living in California again, and would rather not live in NYC due to its extreme cost of living and, for what I value, low quality of life.</p>
<p>One of my friends turned down a very prestigious post-doc at a national lab for around $90,000 a year since he didn't want to work twelve hour days and have to relocate his family there. Instead, he took a job at a local (Pittsburgh) company making $80,000; effectively a ton more money.</p>
<p>Fit is really, really important. I made the mistake of not visiting most of the schools I applied to before I applied and had some unpleasant surprises when I went to see them. I think, honestly, that the most important thing is finding a place that has what you want with people you can connect with.</p>
<p>I'm assuming that Barnard is the EC school you're talking about. I was also admitted there, and I'm going. I'm not crazy about it -- I was waitlisted somewhere else and I'm really, really hoping I get in -- because when I visited I felt like I didn't fit there. The girls weren't a lot like me. BUT I'm still matriculating there over other schools (Claremont McKenna and Oberlin) because I think that their academic program and the opportunities you have access to are much greater at Barnard. (CMC is a great school, obviously, but I don't want to do Poli Sci/IR/Econ, and I'm from MA, so...) Basically everybody I've talked to about Barnard who has first-hand experience with Columbia U has told me that academics at Barnard are better than at Columbia, overall. It is a phenomenal school, academically. And the rankings are all a bunch of crap anyway. A lot of it has do with endowment and majors offered (I believe) which count heavily against Barnard, because Columbia U has most of the money, and because many majors are offered solely at Columbia College.</p>
<p>It's not like she's choosing between -- I don't know, Stanford and Lehigh. Barnard is an excellent school. The reason so few women go directly to grad school after their last year of college is because grad schools generally prefer that applicants have some experience in the outside world, and discourage people from applying so soon. (I sat in on a panel discussion about this during the Accepted Students Weekend.) Barnard women generally do really well getting into go grad programs. If she really feels that Barnard is the place for her, then that's where she should go.</p>
<p>
[quote]
11 out of 588 for top grad schools only.
[/quote]
The term "top grad schools" is a misnomer. What WSJ tabulated are 15 top graduate professional programs - medicine, law and MBA. Unless your daughter is interested in pursuing such a career, this list has no relevance on her college selection.</p>
<p>I'd be careful using the WSJ info to determine grad school success. That ranking excluded many, many top grad schools. Plus, there are major differences in "fit" between Barnard and Pomona. These are two very different schools. There are certainly students who might thrive in one location and flounder in the other. A happy student at Barnard is bound to go further than a disgruntled student at Pomona. All things being equal, Pomona is the better choice, but if she is balking even a little at the prospect of a Pomona education, I'd say let her follow her heart.</p>
<p>Medicine: Columbia; Harvard; Johns Hopkins; the University of California, San Francisco; and Yale
MBA programs:Chicago; Dartmouth's Tuck School; Harvard; MIT's Sloan School; and Penn's Wharton School.
Law: Chicago; Columbia; Harvard; Michigan; and Yale.</p>
<p>"In the end, the bigger question may be whether it's worth obsessing about Harvard anyway. True, graduates of private law schools, including the elite places, nabbed starting salaries 15% to 20% higher than their public-school counterparts"</p>
<p>WSJ article SarahsDad posted dated 2003. I wish I could post article I read couple of months ago in WSJ or NYT about law schools. It is no longer about 15-20% more money. Recent graduates from lesser law schools having hard time finding jobs. And this is in NY! Article described lawyers working part time for low hourly rate. I do not remember exact number, $20? I hope she decides not to go to law school but if she does it is better be a top one.</p>
<p>I do not want to sound to pessimistic and now is very unusual time but last couple of weeks I read plenty of news about MBA grads job offers being rescinded. </p>
<p>She does not know what she wants to do so grad school may not even matter but if she decides on profession where it makes a difference better school may give her edge.
I am not obsessed with ratings. She got into #4 rated LACs and #12 rated U. I am not telling her to go in the best rated school she got in. We both felt that it was totally wrong place for.
I also understand that she is going to do well anywhere.
I do not think settling on WC is such a bad idea. She gets residency and grad school will be cheaper.
Thank you very much for all responses. I guess I really do not understand this whole "fit" thing. It is only four years, she is not getting married to LAC. If she really hates it there is plenty of schools she can transfer. And she has some reservations about Barnard. Why most on this board do not argue if Harvard is right fit? The other school is simply better than Barnard and as far as I am concern better than Harvard. I just do not think that such expensive thing can be left to 17 year old to decide completely. It has to be some balance. I wish we were was more prepared for this and did not have to make decision last minute.</p>
<p>It is possible to transfer but as you probably know it is much harder to be admitted as a transfer student. It's a choice if things do not work out, but a very difficult option to achieve. </p>
<p>IMHO -- Getting to the top is more than just a prestigious degree. It's also a lot about ambition, passion, and sacrifice and sometimes just being in the right place at the right time. You don't have to go to the best schools just one of the better schools that challenge, motivate, and teach. And there's a variety of great schools because what's best for me is not necessarily best for you.</p>
<p>"You sound like someone who has never had a "top job" or been at "the
top of their field." Those who have know that your assertions are incorrect."</p>
<p>Please, look at statistics for one, you tell me a higher percentage, or even number (considering U of F is bigger) of people at the top of hteir field do not come from Harvard over Florida. Get off of your iory tower. All because you do not go to HArvard, does not mean you should knock it. Hell I do not go there, but I know Harvard can get you palces. That is a rediculous comment. Please, do you reaserch first. Dont pay $200,000 to go to a worse school</p>