Is "fit" really important?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>My D is accepted to many very selective schools and we are down to two. I do not want name these schools as we already know that they are totally different. Both are top LACs, one on EC near major city where we live, the other is on WC in a middle of nowhere.</p>

<p>Cost is the same and we can not get any aid and I am not even sure if I can actually pay for all four years and she will not get aid anyway. I am not planning to take any loans. </p>

<p>I feel that if I make such huge sacrifice she should get most out of school academically. I think it is totally crazy as far as salary undergraduates get after paying 200+k for education. (except ibanking but it is not for her. may be something else I do not know about). So the only way I can justify the sacrifice if she goes to good graduate school.</p>

<p>I can not find one single piece of statistics, rating, etc that explains that she should go to EC school. WC school is a lot more selective, rated, one of the best in grad school admissions, etc, etc. I see various ratings where WC school is rated from #1 to 10 and EC school is 20-40 at best. </p>

<p>We visited many schools she got accepted and some schools she hated but she does not hate WC school. EC school was always her first choice and it definitely better fit. I absolutely agree with her. I also not happy with idea that she will be so far away from home. </p>

<p>But I think that main purpose of LAC is to get good education, decide what she wants to do, get into top grad school and make a decent living after. </p>

<p>She can still get very good education in EC school and there are many options there that not available in WC school.</p>

<p>I am getting sick forcing her to go to WC school. I never really expected her to get in. </p>

<p>I am telling her to go to WC school and if she absolutely hates it she can transfer to EC school later. I can not imagine EC school not taking her.</p>

<p>So am I totally wrong? Any thoughts? I am sure many parents/students had similar dilemmas at some point.</p>

2

<p>Planning on transferring is probably not a great idea. While she may be able to get into EC school, transferring can be an incredibly difficult process--procedurally as well as socially. </p>

<p>Now that said, you're absolutely correct in saying that the main purpose of college is to get an education. However, to a certain extent, education is what you make of it. If your D ends up going to WC school and being unhappy, it's not really going to matter that WC school is better. It sounds to me that WC school will provide your daughter with more opportunities to flourish, at least academically. However, if the fit is so poor that she will not take advantage of those opportunities, than there's no reason for her to go there. </p>

<p>Now, obviously only you and your daughter can make good guesses about how happy or unhappy she'll be at WC or EC. I think it's important not to discount the academic advantages of WC...just know that brilliant teachers, beautiful facilities, and wonderful classes won't matter much if your daughter is miserable.</p>

3

<p>I think you should let her go where she wants to go. It sounds like both schools are "good" schools, even though one may be more selective or higher ranked. I agree that the transfer idea is a bad one.</p>

<p>More important than the school itself, it's what the student does when she gets there. And if she goes where she really wants to be, I think she's more likely to excel.</p>

4

<p>I agree with ken- Both are ranked well even if one is slightly higher than the other. If she likes one more than the other, she should just go to that one. And the fact that it's on the east coast will probably make it easier to get to- plane tickets would only be more money.</p>

5

<p>She does not hate WC school. We visited number of schools that she hated and I am not forcing her to go there.
What about the fact that after graduating from EC school and not getting to top grad school and getting a job that going to pay her around 35k? I can absolutely guarantee that she will be miserable trying to survive on this.
I met plenty of transfers in highly selective LACs I visited at admitted students days.
I can see the point that great school may not matter if my D is miserable there. But OTH she wants to do two majors and a minor, write for newspaper, work at radio station and have internships. Will she have time to get depressed?</p>

6

<p>If the schools aren't that different in quality, it won't make much difference for grad school. Only if there is a huge difference in quality, and especially quality of the faculty, will it make a big difference.</p>

<p>Most people graduate, make $35K or whatever, and work their way up. That is normal. Why would it make someone miserable? You really think starting salary from WC is really that much higher than EC?</p>

7

<p>Getting into a top grad school is usually more about test scores than the school you attended. If your daughter is happier, then she will likely do better which will help her chances at grad school.</p>

<p>I say let her follow her heart.</p>

8

<p>I would say go WC. From my experince fit is not that important. I always wanted an outdoorsy liberal arts college, away from the city. But I ended up in a college idffernet form my ideal situation, a college I never expected to gain admittance to. I went with the better ranked school and have never regretted it. It is impossible to determine what a school will be liek until you ahve been there for a few weeks, waht you hear from other people and books will not tell you. Picking a school based on fit, is therefore ludacris, especially if she doenst dislike the better school. After vuisutng colleges in bigger cities, I kind fo regret the fact that I only looked at schools outside major urban areas; there are many differnt ways tohave fun, and whichever college she goes to, she will have fun, guaranteed. </p>

<p>As far as liberal arts colleges goes, there are only 27 LACS that admissions officers say are higly selective and really worth going to. I have talked to deans at many top schools about htis (Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, etc..) Plus, people outside of the regions where LACs are located, even for the top ranked, are not very well known. You have to consider weather 200000 is a good investment for a school that will not give her better exit opportunities than her local state school. While college is not all aobut getting a job in teh future, alot of it is about that. School comes first, then play. I didnt apply to schools that I didnt think would be worth the money, and my parents appreciated that. If you do not beleive the EC school to be worth it, then you are not obligated to pay. In the long run, she will probably liek the WC better, because there will be a stonger sense of pride at the school.</p>

9

<p>Thank you very much for all replies. As far as starting salary right after school it probably will be the same. I read article in WSJ sometime ago that pretty much said that without grad school you can forget getting good job. There are exceptions of certain fields but I am reasonably sure she will not be interested in any of them. She may consider career in academia.
When I compare WC school that had 23 grads out of class of 362 going to grad schools vs. 11 out of 588 for EC school I just want to know why so few especially that EC school has cross registration with top U? I also love the fact that WC school provides list of grad schools acceptances. Can not get any info from EC school.
I think major problem is that WC school is so different and it is such unfamiliar environment. EC feels like home, WC feels so strange. I think this is a major problem. But my D went to H.S. overseas in her sophomore year and got used to it. It may not work out but she never knows unless she tries.</p>

10

<p>Fit is the most important thing in deciding on a college. It's more important than money, prestige, or location. I learned that lesson the hard way.</p>

11

<p>I don't understand why anyone would bypass the place they're most happy at. I also firmly believe that if you happy, you'll be more successful in the things you do. </p>

<p>Further as it relates to your D, you said yourself that they're top LAC's. How different could they be? Is it really worth her being miserable (or even perhaps just less happy), for 5-10 spots in the rankings? I personally would argue that even 70 or 100 spots in the rankings aren't enough to choose misery for prestige...but that's just me.</p>

12

<p>"Picking a school based on fit, is therefore ludacris, especially if she doenst dislike the better school."</p>

<p>False. As others have said, fit is perhaps the most important aspect in choosing where to spend the next few years.</p>

<p>"As far as liberal arts colleges goes, there are only 27 LACS that admissions officers say are higly selective and really worth going to. I have talked to deans at many top schools about htis (Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, etc..)"</p>

<p>Wrong. Graduate school admissions offices and those who hire in the workplace are very familiar with many more that 27 LACS.</p>

<p>"You have to consider weather 200000 is a good investment for a school that will not give her better exit opportunities than her local state school."</p>

<p>It is impossible to compare the opportunities available graduating from a LAC and a State U when you only graduate from one or the other. No two individuals are alike so you can't compare a successful graduate from one with an unsuccessful graduate from another. A motivated student can be successful graduating from either a LAC or a State U.</p>

<p>"In the long run, she will probably liek the WC better, because there will be a stonger sense of pride at the school."</p>

<p>There is no way to know where the student would be happier, though it sounds like the EC school has been and continues to be where she would like to attend. What is clear is that some of the strongest senses of pride in a school can be found at lower tier public universities.</p>

<p>Since you're talking about LACs in the top 100, they all provide a solid education. Remember that rankings consider many factors that may not matter to you. If schools were ranked solely by factors that concerned you, the rank of the schools your D is considering might look very different than the USN&WR list.</p>

13

<p>dntw8up, Im not sayign taht they wont both provide good educations..they will. But saying that where you go to school dosnt efect exit opportuinitiesis both ignorant and wrong. If you look to graduates of Bowdoing vs. COlby (2 great LACs) and where they go to grad school there is a huge diffence. When looking at the top 5 business schools (jsut one example, I know, but I feel this can be extrapolated to all fields) that are attended by graduates of both schools, you can see that Bowdoing grads go to HArvard and Cornell, while no ivies are in Colbys top 5, and Babson is one of best most commonly attended bsuiness school. While Babson isnt bad, Harvard is better in the long run. </p>

<p>While fit is important, you cannot judge the fiut based on your preconceived biases. Thus, picking a school based on fit, when decidding in high school, solely is not a proper move.</p>

<p>"If schools were ranked solely by factors that concerned you, the rank of the schools your D is considering might look very different than the USN&WR list."
Yes, it would. But the think is, to grad schools and employers, they do not see your D's list, tehy see USNEWS....people need to internalize this. As much as you may not liek the rankings, they are there. get used to it. College is school first. Would I have had more fun at University of Miami over the Northeastern LAC I attend, possibly...but, probably not. THis is not a way to pick a school. All factors need to be considered, fit probaly less so then academics and opportunities.</p>

<p>"Wrong. Graduate school admissions offices and those who hire in the workplace are very familiar with many more that 27 LACS."
Once again this commemt is correct but ignorant. They do no many mroe LACS, I will not argue agaisnt this. But some LACs ARE CONSIDRED BETTER than others. Do think that someone considers Millsaps (a top 100 LAC) comparable to Amherst or Williams is simply wrong.</p>

<p>"A motivated student can be successful graduating from either a LAC or a State U."
Once again correct, but there is a moentary factor involved. Is the LAC really worth paying $200,000 for over the state school...often times no.</p>

<p>Parent200, I urge you when reading these posts, the selection bias of the people on this site. Most people here go to great schools or tend to ahve a more liberal view when it comes to choosing colleges. They often fail to overlook the sentiments of the rest of the American populace. Proof of this is when people talk about how schools such as Uchicago and Brown are equal in prestige to Harvard...</p>

14

<p>I still want to know why EC school such as Barnard only had 11 students out of class of 588 admitted to grad school? They have every opportunity as Columbia students (except core which is actually to Barnard's students advantage) but they did so badly? And Barnard would not provide a list of grad schools. If I have to spend this insane amount of money I want results.</p>

15

<p>Perhaps the students have different goals at Barnard than at the other schools you're talking about with higher grad-school rates? I doubt the students weren't able to get into any school, they probably decided not to attend.</p>

<p>It's not like if you aren't in a top 20 college for undergrad you can't ever attend grad school. I'm at Caltech right now, and know plenty of people that were in "low" ranked schools in engineering/physics for undergrad.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I can see the point that great school may not matter if my D is miserable there. But OTH she wants to do two majors and a minor, write for newspaper, work at radio station and have internships. Will she have time to get depressed?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>She'll have plenty of time to get depressed when she drops her double major, her minor, and quits her ECs due to lack of interest in anything that comes along with depression.</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
I still want to know why EC school such as Barnard only had 11 students out of class of 588 admitted to grad school? They have every opportunity as Columbia students (except core which is actually to Barnard's students advantage) but they did so badly?

[/quote]

Having visited Columbia and Barnard yesterday I would guess a lot of the differnce in grad school attendence is a HUGE pre-selection bias. I would think the percentage of kids STARTING at Columbia planning on immediately attending Med, Law, or B-School after finishing their undersgraduate degree is much-much higher. I would also guess the percentage of students who eventually seek academic PhD from the two schools is much more similar. I do not have data but the student populations seemed pretty different ... both great but pretty different ... and I'd think that difference would manifest itself in different grad school plans (in general).</p>

17

<p>You seem a little too focused on salary and playing the odds. I'd say let her follow her heart. A grad degree in a field she doesn't care about isn't going to ensure anything. If she wants to go to grad school after, fine. If not, fine. Even if she finds a cause that interests her and she goes into a non-profit instead of grad school, she'll make about $30,000 starting off. That's plenty for a 22 year old to live off.</p>

18

<p>"Even if she finds a cause that interests her and she goes into a non-profit instead of grad school, she'll make about $30,000 starting off. That's plenty for a 22 year old to live off".
I have no idea how to survive on 30,000 in LA, SF or NYC.</p>

19

<p>11 out of a class of 588?</p>

<p>That sounded really off to me, so I checked Barnard's website:</p>

<p>"Life After Barnard</p>

<p>Q: What do alumnae do after graduation?
A: We are very proud of all the accomplishments of our many alumnae all around the world. They are doctors, teachers, web designers, business administrators, mothers, lawyers—the list goes on and on. About 75 percent of our graduates go on to pursue a higher degree. In fact, the Barnard connection remains strong long after graduation, from having full access to our library and career services to networking with other alumnae throughout the world. "
Barnard</a> College Admissions</p>

<p>So there's a big difference there- 11/588 and 75%. I'd say the 75% is the right one- where did you get the 11/588? That's sort of surprising.</p>

<p>I know Bryn Mawr undergrads have a 75% accept rate to medical school and something like 80% to law school, and I'd assume that Barnard's figures would be roughly the same...</p>

<p>Upper LACs as a whole usually have pretty high percentages going onto graduate school.</p>

20

<p>Sorry. 11 out of 588 for top grad schools only. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>