<p>Wow, @dheldreth, add .5 to GPA? are you sure you did not make a mistake? .1 or .2 is a LOT, .5? that means everyone is going to have 4.0+ from that school. LOL</p>
<p>“Of course both scores are used in the application. But the question is about which one is more important…… What do you think?”</p>
<p>I interpreted “what do you think” as asking about thoughts about the importance of gpa v mcat. My thought was, in part, that they were of equal importance in initial assessment of applicants, period. In 2013, George Washington Med had 13k+ applicants to fill 177 seats. Adcoms have to start somewhere to thin out the herd and gpas/mcats are great starting point. I also added that once past the initial assessment then I thought other factors become increasingly important in offering interviews. Later posts seem to discuss lizzym formula. After reading these posts, but before I actually posted, I cited and then cut and pasted an actual post by lizzym where he/she referenced why formula was created. The cited post indicated that lizzym his/herself felt the formula ONLY had very limited value as to “likelihood” of II, period; and certainly nothing to do at all with getting an II or admission. The formula has however seemed to have taken on far greater importance than it was ever intended. Again IMO, it just seemed to me that lizzym formula has very, very limited value in med school admission discussion.</p>
<p>“Without reference to your school, can you disclose your “quick and dirty” formula that is not LizzyM? This will benefit the future applicants.”… The only thing we can see are the two or three subjective scores.</p>
<p>I am not a student but a parent of a resident. I do not have a formula. Again, I was merely using lizzym’s own description ("quick and dirty”) of formula. Also although I indicated that gpa/mcat are arguably objective, I do tend to believe quite strongly that GPAs/MCATs are very subjective depending on many factors. But people just love their numbers (GPAs, SATs, ACTs, MCATs, etc, etc) to death and are “shocked” that a child, relative, friend etc was not accepted someplace because they had the numbers or lizzy score. You’re right that it’s impossible for someone here to know what a good LOR is, but everyone “knows” that a 4.0 GPA/40 MCAT guarantees admission although a poor interview (i.e. cocky, arrogant, entitled) can change that guarantee into a reject quickly. Schools, probably for marketing reasons and perhaps for revenue streams, just love to brag about their numbers as well. </p>
<p>@Jugulator20 </p>
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<p>I was referring to your above statement in my previous posting. We would like to know your “quick and dirty” formula vs LizzyM</p>
<p>It’s not my statement but part of lizzym’s post at link provided</p>
<p>^^ Sorry for the misunderstanding, when you quote some one but does not highlight, it is easily being misread. :)</p>
<p>@artloversplus </p>
<p>Glad to hear that your D now has two acceptances! :)</p>
<p>I think you’re asking a good question in regards to allopathic med school admissions.</p>
<p>This is how I would answer… I think that when Adcoms are looking at apps that have gotten thru the initial filters, they may not consider MCAT that much unless it’s quite strong. I think they probably look at those apps with MCAT 30-34 as “the same” and then use GPA to further down-select…particularly if the student is a traditional one. </p>
<p>If I were an Adcom, I might also consider how many times the person took the MCAT. I would be more “forgiving” to the “one and done” applicant who got a MCAT 30-31, but had a very high GPA…over the applicant who had tested 2-3 times to bring the score up to ( Since I have no idea how many times your D tested, this is just an aside…does not pertain to your D)</p>
<p>This is probably what I would be thinking if I were an Adcom. </p>
<p>I also think that when we see a med schools’ average stats, it would be helpful to know what the avg stats are for traditional applicants and what they are for non-trads. My gut tells me that the ADMITTED non-trads more-often-than-not have GPA issues because when they first went to undergrad, they didn’t have their eyes on med school. Heck, some have pretty dismal grades for their frosh/soph years. Their later experiences and maybe SMP or post-baccs and MCAT scores are what nudged them in…but their cumGPA is included and can mislead traditional applicants to think, “ok, that SOM has accepted students with GPA’s below 3.75.” I suspect that many/most med schools do not accept many TRADITIONAL UNHOOKED applicants with GPAs below 3.75.</p>
<p>To me, this is just what my gut tells me. </p>
<p>No mistake on the GPA bump. This information was given to students by an admissions counselor from the med school who was a speaker at their pre-med honors society meeting. A quick internet search gave me the same information- that the when the med school screens for interviews they adjust the GPA by college competitiveness - based on Barron’s Profiles, and Ds undergrad ranks as highly competitive and gets a .50 GPA adjustment. This adjusted GPA is 25% of the final ranking formula. But best MCAT also counts 25%.</p>
<p>^^ I am in line at Best Buy for a door buster so I have some free time to write this until…</p>
<p>Based on what everyone’ s opinions so far, I think my original thought is still accurate. That is, Gpa trumps Mcat but not by much. The -1 in the lizzyM formula should be referring to the Mcat. Based on WOWM, perhaps that Gpa should be further refined to the Sgpa. </p>
<p>The theory about the lizzyM formula is totally useless is not entirely true. That formula has been used by millions and it is time tested over the years so it is still a useful pre-screening tool for a medical school applicant.</p>
<p>I dont believe it is useless. However, the formula is based on the averages at each school and one has to look at the breakdown for each school as opposed to looking at the number on its own. So a school saying 70 does not mean the same as another school saying 79 unless they have both GPA and MCAT averages exactly the same By the same token, 70 means nothing if the student has 40 MCAT and 3.0 GPA and the school shows 4.0 GPA and 30 MCAT. </p>
<p>artloversplus</p>
<p>the source (lizzym) of the misunderstanding of phrase (quick and dirty) is on my end, I apologize for confusion.</p>
<p>As to value of lizzym score/formula, I wasn’t offering my own thoughts so much as relaying the purpose/value that lizzym her/himself placed on it. Score/formula is not totally useless, but is of limited value in only determining likelihood of interview invite, period. So yes it provides an applicant with “quick” snapshot or starting point when developing a list of med schools to apply to but the formula is flawed (aka dirty) as there is much more involved in the actual decision to offer II. It is, however. totally useless in determining an applicant’s chance at an actual offer of admission. </p>
<p>@Jugulator20
I totally agree, yes, the LizzyM can only give an INDICATION about how successful a candidate will be in applying. Therefore, regardless one’s objective scores, everyone apply to a lot of schools to increase the chance. </p>
<p>As far as parents of the candidate can do, like us, is hoping the results of the formula will lead to an II and that is all…</p>
<p>@dheldreth
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<p>Can you reference the “Barren’s Profile”, so we can read that on the same page?
May I guess your D is either at Reed or MIT?
Lastly, what is the “final ranking formula” are you referring to?</p>
<p>BTW,
Based on my article/thread here:</p>
<p><a href=“Garde Deflation? - University of Chicago - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/1659610-garde-deflation-p1.html</a></p>
<p>UChicago should not be listed as a “Grade Deflation” school any more, so no brownie points can be added for med school applications.</p>
<p>artloversplus</p>
<p>Not to get off topic, but after reading some of your posts regarding your D’s MD app process this cycle, I can really empathize with you. Her GPA with upward trend and MCAT are very similar to my S’s story when he applied (S is currently a resident). Your D however was wiser than my S in applying more broadly to both MD/DO schools. S put all eggs into MD basket. On one of your posts (See your post 7 @
<a href=“DD's MD & DO School Chances? - Pre-Med Topics - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/1623760-dds-md-do-school-chances-p1.html</a>. )
I came across a list of schools your D applied to. I can tell you that the 2 of 3 schools S received IIs from were also on your D’s list. And although my memory is a little foggy at this point, I think that all 3 IIs came in December. So as long as D does not have a rejection in hand, my experience is that there’s still hope. </p>
<p>Barron’s - Barron’s Profile of Colleges</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.barronspac.com”>http://www.barronspac.com</a></p>
<p>The final ranking formula @dheldreth mentions is a scoring rubric that a particular medical school uses for ranking applicants. A formula assigns a value/points to various elements of student’s application and a numerical score results. This makes it faster and easier for adcomm members to rank applicants into II-hold-reject categories. </p>
<p>I’ve mostly seen scoring rubrics associated with public med schools, but I’d imagine that some privates use them too, if for no other reason than convenience.</p>
<p>Each school will use its own unique rubric and how one school weights various items has no impact on what another school does.</p>
<p>D does not go to Reed or MIT</p>
<p>The ranking is specific to that med school and can’t be generalized to others. For them, they rank using 25% adjusted GPA, 25% best MCAT, and the rest are rankings by interviewers based on personality traits, LOR, volunteerism, shadowing, leadership. So if other schools are like this med school, a lot more than GPA and MCAT go into their decision to offer an acceptance and possibly even IIs </p>
<p>Can’t link to Barron’s profile- you either have to buy the book or pay for access online. I did neither, the information about Ds school was given by admissions. </p>
<p>This school is a public state med school that shows heavy preference for IS students, and almost all OOS students have strong ties to the state. </p>
<p>D did not use the Lizzym score when coming up with her list. She bought MSAR, applied to all state public med schools, and applied to some out of state privates that her scores matched. Because she did take the MCAT 3 times, she did not apply to any reaches… She also had an extremely strong application in the areas other than GPA and MCAT, and I think that helped her. </p>
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<p>Thanks for the good words, jugu, when you are a boarder line, you just have to hope…</p>
<p>My son got one II in January. Until it was received, we were wondering why he hadn’t been yet invited, but then we heard that the school is notoriously slow. </p>
<p>So…I am still holding out for some more good news for your D.</p>
<p>@texaspg </p>
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<p>I think the data you have here is out dated. I think it is from the old LizzyM spread sheet.</p>
<p>This year, I believe all those 3.5 schools have been at 3.65 or higher. Howard had been raised to 3.7 ish.</p>
<p>Check it out yourself at studentdoc.com</p>
<p>LizzyM spreadsheet is from 2011. I am not sure if she has updated it since.</p>