Is grade deflation a myth?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>I got the idea for this topic from my response to another thread. I will repost it as follows:</p>

<p>
[quote]
</p>

<p>"Grade deflation" is somewhat of a myth. The thing about the academics is that the science classes are tough, but graded fairly. As long as you average one standard deviation above the mean (maybe a little less) on each exam, you should get an A. Don't be scared by low means (our Orgo means were in the high 50s), it's the normal curve that matters.</p>

<p>My friend at a public school says the tests are easier (means are in the 80s) but the curve is more messed up. Like a 95 and above is an A, so the A is not earned by understanding the material, and making careless mistakes can easily bring your grade down.</p>

<p>

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If the professor grades fairly and understands statistics, the grades will be assigned based off a normal distribution. That way, the exam difficulty does not matter. It is better for the mean to be lower, so the distribution is not skewed to the left. My biology class assigns a grade of A- or better to 35 percent of the class, which to me is very generous. Many public schools only have about 10 percent of the class getting As in a huge lecture based class.</p>

<p>I would much rather get a C on a very hard exam (popular at top private schools) which curves to an A than to be nitpicky on every single problem of a moderately difficult, uncurved exam (popular at public schools).</p>

2

<p>Elite privates are more grade inflated than public schools. However, even so, if you compare GPA vs. MCAT, it still shows that elite private schools (even with the grade inflation) is still harder than the public state schools. Meaning the 3.4 GPA kids at the elite schools are outscoring the 3.6 GPA kids at state schools on the MCAT (those are somewhat arbitrary numbers but you get the point).</p>

<p>Now, among the elite private schools, there are some schools which are BELIEVED to grade tougher than others (Cornell, WashU, JHU, UChicago, MIT). I have only seen GPA data from Cornell and MIT and the data shows that they are NOT grade deflated relative to other top schools.</p>

<p>Top schools do not have harder exams than state schools. The difference is that the mean is so much higher. For example, the mean on a typical orgo exam at Cornell was around 60. You'd score 1 std. dev higher (typically 75-78) to get your A-. The test given at UC Davis was just as hard. My friend in fact showed me his tests. The problem is that the mean at UC Davis (which is curved to a C+) was only 39! I'm sure scoring 75 on the same test at UC Davis would've earned you the A- or A anyway.</p>

3

<p>I go to a top public school (take a guess at which one from my location) and my limited experience from my only science class this semester was this: the class was not curved, however, there were more than 100 points on each exam (with the exception of the final for some reason) so there was some room for error.</p>

4

<p>i think the level of difficulty of the test is almost similar between a state school and private, but the student body is the major difference- which results in GPA deflation for some top privates.</p>

5

<p>Hey norcalguy, there is no doubt in my mind that Wash U is tough. However, in terms of grading, I think it is quite easy to do well. Our average GPA was a little over 3.4 last semester. I'd be interested to hear about cornell and MIT.</p>

6

<p>Cornell's avg. GPA was 3.3 a few years ago. Probably in the 3.4 range now, same as Harvard, WashU, and others.</p>

<p>I don't have the link right off the top of my head for MIT but another poster showed me a credible MIT source that broke down MIT GPA's (and the GPA's were mostly in the B+/A- range as well, especially after freshman year). </p>

<p>I personally don't think biology is any tougher at MIT than Cornell or Harvard or Princeton or any other top school.</p>

7

<p>dang, maybe I should have gone to MIT then. It has a pretty tough rep, especially to med school admissions people right?</p>

8

<p>No, if you look at MIT's med school applicant numbers, the average GPA of an accepted MIT applicant is 3.6. So, adcoms are cutting them no breaks.</p>

<p>Think about it: MIT produceds 150 med school applicants a year, year after year. Adcoms see plenty of applications from MIT applicants each year. It doesn't take them very long to figure out that it's not this uber-tough school that it's reputed to be (at least not outside of engineering).</p>

9

<p>Are you aware MIT uses a 5.0 as A scale, not 4.0 as an A......</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
Are you aware MIT uses a 5.0 as A scale, not 4.0 as an A......

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, the MIT grading assessment paper reported GPA as grades received rather than as a single number (ie "40% of grades given out were A's, 30% were B's" or whatever).</p>

<p>The GPA reported by the MIT pre-prof office for its med school applicants has been converted to the 4.0 scale.</p>

11

<p>phonyreal98</p>

<p>I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the majority of science and math classes at UNC are graded on a very strict curve, so consider that class more of an aberration. As you no doubt already know, the UNC grading system with its plus and minus grades also makes a big impact on your GPA. When others are getting a 4.0 for a low A and you are getting a 3.75 it doesn't take long to have the science GPA start to drop a bit.</p>

<p>That said, I am guessing that the Med Schools are fully aware of the rigor of various schools' curriculum because my son said that in several interviews he was told (without being asked) that their med school's curve and grading systems would mirror what he was used to.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
When others are getting a 4.0 for a low A and you are getting a 3.75 it doesn't take long to have the science GPA start to drop a bit.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>AMCAS has its own system for calculating GPAs, so this won't be a problem.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Think about it: MIT produceds 150 med school applicants a year, year after year. Adcoms see plenty of applications from MIT applicants each year. It doesn't take them very long to figure out that it's not this uber-tough school that it's reputed to be (at least not outside of engineering).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ha! That's a rather serious caveat considering that engineering is more than half of the entire MIT student body, don't you think? </p>

<p>I think that's actually the real problem. I think it may in fact be true that biology classes at MIT are no more grade deflated than biology classes at peer schools. The major problem, of course, is that not all premeds are biology majors. Put another way, the real problem of grade deflation that I have seen is not so much from school-to-school, but rather from major-to-major. Let's face it. Some majors are simply harder than others. But the premed adcoms don't really seem to care about that. </p>

<p>Furthermore, even the MIT biology majors, like every other student at MIT, has to take the General Institute Requirements, which include difficult subjects such as multivariable calculus. Bio majors at other schools don't need to do that. So, what if you take that class... and do poorly? For the purposes of med-school admissions, you are now worse off compared to the bio majors at other schools who didn't have to take that class at all. Like I've always said, the sad truth is that you are better off not taking a difficult class at all than taking it and getting a poor grade.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
Put another way, the real problem of grade deflation that I have seen is not so much from school-to-school, but rather from major-to-major. Let's face it. Some majors are simply harder than others. But the premed adcoms don't really seem to care about that.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is absolutely correct. MIT does have a higher proportion of premeds who are engineering majors. But, for the individual who wants to do bio at MIT, it's not a problem.</p>

<p>The advantage of doing an engineering major is that in the event you don't get into med school, you'll have an excellent backup career, whereas someone who chose to do bio or english solely for the sake of getting into med school would be in a bad position. But, as you noted, engineering is a self-fulfilling prophecy and it's up to the individual to balance that risk. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Furthermore, even the MIT biology majors, like every other student at MIT, has to take the General Institute Requirements, which include difficult subjects such as multivariable calculus. Bio majors at other schools don't need to do that. So, what if you take that class... and do poorly? For the purposes of med-school admissions, you are now worse off compared to the bio majors at other schools who didn't have to take that class at all.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Very very marginally, you're worse off. In the end, we're talking about 1-2 classes that you have to take that perhaps other bio majors won't have to. Even if you get the average grade (B) in one of them, we're still talking about just a 0.01-0.02 hit on your GPA. The prestige, small classes, and research opps of MIT more than make up for it. </p>

<p>As I have said before, MIT provides a unique academic environment. Someone who is determined to get a hardcore science education at MIT is not going to like doing English at Yale. In the end, the student is more likely to do better at MIT (and overcome any subpar grade in that multivar class) than a school he doesn't like, even if that school is Harvard or Yale or any of MIT's peer institutions.</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
Very very marginally, you're worse off. In the end, we're talking about 1-2 classes that you have to take that perhaps other bio majors won't have to. Even if you get the average grade (B) in one of them, we're still talking about just a 0.01-0.02 hit on your GPA. The prestige, small classes, and research opps of MIT more than make up for it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And what happens if you don't get the average grade in them? What if you get a C, or even worse? </p>

<p>After all, think about what we're talking about here. To get the average grade means that you will have to be as good at math as the average student. In a math class. At MIT. Think about that. I believe it's obvious that most successful premeds in the country are not as good at math as is the average student at MIT. But they don't have to be. </p>

<p>That gets back to what I said before. I don't think a B is a bad grade. But a C (or worse) is. And, like I said, it is better to not even take a class at all than to take it and get a bad grade. Let's be perfectly honest. A lot of successful premeds probably would have gotten a C or worse if they were forced to take multivariable calculus at MIT (or any other school). But they were never forced to do so, so they never have to take the risk. The premed process (sadly) rewards risk avoidance.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The advantage of doing an engineering major is that in the event you don't get into med school, you'll have an excellent backup career, whereas someone who chose to do bio or english solely for the sake of getting into med school would be in a bad position. But, as you noted, engineering is a self-fulfilling prophecy and it's up to the individual to balance that risk.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think we are presuming a level of rationality that, frankly, most undergrads don't have, even those at MIT. Let's be honest. Most incoming freshmen don't really know exactly what they want to do. They tend to follow what the social culture at a particular school values, and at MIT, that's engineering, and some of those students will (sadly) get crushed. Then those students might realize later that they actually want to be premeds, but by that time, their GPA's have already been slaughtered, so it's too late. They've already lost the game before it ever really got started. </p>

<p>Now, I certainly agree that if you know you want to be a premed from day one, then sure, you can choose the bio major from the start and avoid the engineering abattoir. But I just think back to my own experiences. I certainly didn't know what I wanted to major in until deep into my sophomore year. Neither did my brother. Neither did most people that I know. Nor were we particular unusual: numerous studies have demonstrated that the vast majority of college students don't really know what they want to major in, and often times end up changing majors from what they thought they would do. Many premeds also don't know that they want to be premeds until they're already deep into the weeds. Heck, some people don't even find out that they want to be premeds until they've already graduated, which is why the post-bac programs are so popular. </p>

<p>
[quote]
As I have said before, MIT provides a unique academic environment. Someone who is determined to get a hardcore science education at MIT is not going to like doing English at Yale. In the end, the student is more likely to do better at MIT (and overcome any subpar grade in that multivar class) than a school he doesn't like, even if that school is Harvard or Yale or any of MIT's peer institutions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, it's not so much that those kind of tech-oriented people necessarily "like" doing English. It's that they use those classes to basically "load up" with filler.</p>

<p>Let me explain. I know quite a few engineering students who, in their final semesters, just backfilled their schedules with all manners of humanities and soc-sci classes. Why? Several reasons. The top reason, by far, was that they were looking to boost their GPA's above the honors cutoffs; those who were at or just below the cutoffs would strive to reach them by just loading up with a bunch of easy classes, and as we all know, hum/socsci classes tend to be graded far easier than are engineering classes. {It is for this reason that I think that engineering honors should be determined by engineering GPA, not overall GPA.} Some of they also needed something to give them enough units so that they could still be considered full-time students for financial aid purposes, and while they could choose to take more engineering courses, they figured, why take an extremely difficult 4-unit engineering class when they can take an easy 4-unit hum/socsci class? I remember one engineering guy who took a final semester of one engineering class and several humanities classes, and said that he worked harder in that one engineering class - and got a far lower grade - than he did in all of those humanities classes combined. </p>

<p>However, at MIT, you can't really load up on 'filler' that easily. The optimal filler is a class that is not only interesting to you, but also requires very little work and grades very easily, and while MIT does have some hum/socsci classes, other schools clearly have far more.</p>

16

<p>There are still small sized classes at UC Davis that you have to put in your time of day to scrape out a B+. I’m a Chem major and it really depends on the class size. Smaller elite classes usually brings about smarter classmates and an unforgiving grading scale. I think the only thing that matters is that we’re all going to schools that are top 50. A 4.0 from community college or low tier state school <<< a 4.0 from a top 50 institution</p>