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I find it rather sad how many people on this board want to apply to selective schools for the mere fact that they are selective! I wonder how many of these people would be applying to Harvard if it were ranked #130? Probably ZERO.
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Harvard got to be as selective as it is today AS A RESULT OF the quality of its education. There's the correlation - and it's most often true where told. Nobody cares that Cooper Union admits 12% of its applicants. People here aren't just attracted to isolated selectivity - but selectivity that has been earned.</p>
<p>You definitely can't say that Harvard's quality of education and selectivity aren't related.</p>
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the schools ranked the highest will offer us the most opportunities </p>
<p>tht is true. maybe change highest to 'high', and 'most' to a lot. The key word here is oppurtunities. Its suppose to mean the doors opened to you after graduation etc. and even a raise when ur working. I dont see how 'oppurtunities' is suddenly read as 'success in life' tho. There are definitely some relation. And its practically a truth tht a company will hire a harvard grad instead of a community college grad. And altho it doesnt guarantee success, the pt of a prestigious degree, like from harvard or sth, is in itself a very recognizable 'award'. Those are the one of the group of best students and recruiters noe. Lets say some1 who is accepted to harvard but decides to go to a community college. Tht guy will do just as well at either college (but probably still better at harvard, if we compare the resources etc i guess), and comes out just as good as if he went to harvard. This guy will earn a later on in his life, but im betting tht if he went to harvard, he will succeed a lot faster given the fact tht so many doors are open to u becuz of 'harvard'.</p>
<p>Theoneo wrote, "Nobody cares that Cooper Union admits 12% of its applicants."</p>
<p>One reason applications are so high at Cooper Union is that every student admitted receives a full tuition scholarship. Without doubt, it's one of the best deals in all of American higher education.</p>
<p>The Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art is a highly focused institution -- the only majors offered are in architecture, engineering, and art -- but I promise you that within those fields, a Cooper Union degree is every bit as respected as a Harvard degree.</p>
<p>Theoneo wrote, "You definitely can't say that Harvard's quality of education and selectivity aren't related."</p>
<p>They are related, of course, but there is a well informed school of thought that the undergraduate education Harvard offers is inferior to that offered at numerous other schools. Much of Harvard's reputation rests on its preeminent graduate schools, but undergraduates benefit little or not at all from the proximity of those schools. If Harvard's "selectivity" correlated directly with the quality of the undergraduate education offered, Harvard would be only one of many "highly selective schools," and would not be the most selective.</p>
<p>Remember, Harvard does not admit based only on academic credentials. Harvard is seeking to educate the world's future leaders in most fields of endeavor. They could fill each class with nothing but high school validictorians and/or 2400 SAT scorers, but they choose not to because they know that other capabilities are at least as important as pure academic horsepower in determining future life success and contribution to society. </p>
<p>While they no longer seek the "well rounded candidate" the way the service academies still do, Harvard does seek to build the "well rounded class" that includes in addition to validictorians and straight 800 SAT scorers, world class muscians, athletes, published writers, etc., so long as they meet a still very high minimum academic standard. For example, Harvard knows that among its graduates, those who were varsity athletes on average end up earning more over their careers than do non-athletes, even though their entering academic credentials or academic performance at college may not have been as high. This is true also of other elite academic institutions.</p>
<p>About Cooper Union - I wouldn't say the number of applications they receive is "so high" because of the full-tuition scholarships. The opportunities are limited exclusively to science and art - with absolutely nothing else. It's pretty hardcore, and that attracts people who are hardcore about science and art. And the overall quality isn't even that great - students complain about their professors and lack of participation in sports, they barely have any clubs compared to other institutions, etc. The low acceptance rate results from admitting around 275 students ouf of an applicant pool of about 2300 - which is NOTHING compared to Harvard's pool. Cooper Union's selectivity is, in my opinion, in isolation with respect to the quality of the experience offered. (By the way, USNWR doesn't include it in their rankings because of its size).</p>
<p>About Harvard - I'm not saying that overall quality and selectivity are the only factors. And I definitely wouldn't try to distinguish between "highly selective" and "most selective" - it's a gray area. I'm just saying that its selectivity (highly v. moderately v. not selective) correlates to its quality (again, you can look at it within three tiers) - and it would be relatively unreasonable to say that Harvard wouldn't fall into the first tier, even by a "well informed school of thought". In the end, there's no magic formula or chart where you can calculate the selectivity-quality index of a school, but you can use general categories like three-tier systems, and it makes sense.</p>
<p>Another thing - selectivity should be looked at in context. The University of Chicago is an example that works opposite Cooper Union. Not too many students apply to UChic, yet the CALIBER of students who are accepted are definitely comparable to the caliber of those at Harvard. Meanwhile, Cooper Union is known to be a numbers school that focuses on only a few areas. Their most important admissions factors are standardized test scores, high school transcript, and talent/ability; after that it's just the essay. What about activities and community involvement? Cooper Union doesn't put much weight on that. A friend of mine is going there this fall - he wasn't a social guy. He got the scores, aced his classes, and... that's it. His hobby was reconfiguring his computer. Another friend of mine is at Chicago - she skipped two years ahead in math, researched at Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory, tutored through a local organization out of school, and was one of a few students to be selected as peer mediators. Oh, and she got the scores and aced her classes, too.</p>
<p>I have also read what laxdad brought up concerning Harvard. It is known as a school that focuses on graduate education instead of undergrad so that professors are not as engaged with the undergrad students. It is interesting how different cultures develop on different campuses.</p>
<p>There have been many threads on CC about the value of a undergrad degree from an extremely selective colleges. Some people seem to feel that they teach you a secret handshake on graduation day that you can use for the rest of your life to get whatever you want. Certainly for Law, PhD's, and certain prestigious MBA's, it is a big help throughout your life. This is also true for medical research. However, for a terminal undergraduate degree, the benefit doesn't extend much beyond getting your first job. Also, its value in getting into a prestigious grad school doesn't seem to be that much. It is certainly better to graduate in the top 10% of a public univ than the bottom half of HYP. A good book to read is "Harvard Schmarvard" by Jay Mathews.</p>
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ok semiserious, why are you on here then?
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<p>Because I fall an old and apparently out-dated school of thought that the most important thing is being HAPPY where you go to college. I came here to seek more information about the type of lifestyles students enjoy at the colleges of my choice, which include Duke, Vanderbilt, Miami Ohio, Wake Forest, Boston College, Villanova, and others. I did not choose any of these schools based on "selectivity" ande therefore percieved "academic quality" because all of these schools, in spite of their varying acceptence rates, offer a great education if one is ready and willing to recieve it.</p>
<p>Some of this may stem from the fact that I'm not quite as ambitious as many of the people on this board. While I hope to hold a fun job for a while, something in moviemaking or writing ideally, or perhaps a teacher, my ultimate goal in life is to have be a mother and have a family. I view college much more as a stepping stone to my emotional adulthood rather than a jumping point from which to enter the workforce. And when I see how many people here view it as the latter, I can understand where we differ in opinions.</p>
<p>dooit - are u implying that I am a hypocrite for going to Harvard? Listen, if I had a chance to go to Harvard, I will go to Harvard. However, if I had to go to Berkeley or UCLA or Davis or wtvr, id be perfectly fine. My problem is that many people on this board think that the only road to success is through a prestigious university. We are talking about kids who are dying to go to HYPSM and would not want to go anywhere else.</p>
<p>Theoneo, not that it's particularly relevant to the discussion, but I was Harvard '65. It's an incredible place, but I personally think that even if you can get in, there are better places for many young folks. Ultimately, I believe the right match is more important than "prestige."</p>
<p>Which, of course, was my point about Cooper Union -- with which I have no connection. It is a strange place that attracts a strange student. But if the match is right, it is a great place. And I know for a fact that in architecture and engineering, the degree carries a lot of weight.</p>
<p>Your examples indicate that we essentially agree. You for some reason seem to have an axe to grind with Cooper Union, but you seem willing to acknowledge that it is a good place for the strange people who go there.</p>
<p>I think we were just talking about different things - you're referring to quality at an individual level, whereas I'm comparing general resources, facilities, atomosphere, etc that will not apply to each and every person.</p>
<p>Anyway, this started with comparing selectivity to overall quality, so it wouldn't make sense to speak on the individual level. Cooper Union offers very limited opportunities, whereas Harvard offers a wider range of facilities and resources. I'm not comparing Harvard and Cooper Union degrees - just their undergraduate experiences.</p>
<p>Theoneo, you were the one who brought up Cooper Union in the first place, only to dis the place ... "Harvard got to be as selective as it is today AS A RESULT OF the quality of its education ... Nobody cares that Cooper Union admits 12% of its applicants. People here aren't just attracted to isolated selectivity - but selectivity that has been earned." You suggested that while Harvard's selectivity had been earned by the quality of its education, Cooper Union's selectivity had not been earned. I've simply tried to show that Cooper Union's program and reputation justify its selectivity ... albeit on a smaller, more narrow stage than Harvard. Also, Harvard's undergraduate selectivity is only partly earned by the quality of its undergraduate education, because much of its reputation derives from its preeminent grad schools.</p>
<p>Don't fall into the trap of believing that Harvard -- or any other hyper-selective school -- is the place you must go if you can get in. I say again, the right fit is more important than any perceived "prestige." </p>
<p>Cooper Union wouldn't appeal to me if I were college searching now, and it never even appeared on my sons' radar when they were going through the process in 2000-01. It appeals to a very narrow range of potential applicants, but within the fields on which it concentrates, its degree is every bit as valuable as that from a more widely known university.</p>
<p>Okay, I said nobody cares about Cooper Union, but I never called the students who decide to matriculate "strange". That's just downright rude. And my intent was not to diss the institution. I apologize to all Cooper Union fanatics if I have offended you in any way.</p>
<p>And once again, I never meant to compare a Harvard and Cooper Union degree.</p>
<p>And if you haven't noticed, I'm trying to end this discussion/debate we're having. Help me out here.</p>
<p>It seems that some people believe that when you graduate from an ivy, you are taught a secret handshake that you can use to get whatever you want for the rest of you life.</p>
<p>I certainly think that an ivy would be a beautiful way to spend four years, but if I had to pay full price and money meant something to me, it is not a good investment. For law degrees, PhD's, and prestigious MBA's, it is something that will help you your entire life. Perhaps also for medical research. However, for a terminal undergrad degree, it won't help much after getting your first job. Also, it is not that important in getting into grad school. Certainly it is better to be in the top 10% at a large public univ, than the bottom half at HYP.</p>
<p>A good book to read is "Harvard Schmarvard" by Jay Mathews who is a Wash Post reporter and Harvard alum.</p>
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My problem is that many people on this board think that the only road to success is through a prestigious university.
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Actually, I'm confident NO ONE is that superficial. However, most people on this board know that it is the fastest and easiest way. </p>
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Listen, if I had a chance to go to Harvard, I will go to Harvard.
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That's what I am trying to say. But semiserious' tone implicates that we are prestige whores and we will only apply to universities that are selective because we will choose Harvard over the state school.</p>